Haley Boehning (00:00)
the majority of leaders said that they believed that they had a clear vision and direction for the company and that they were communicating regularly to their team, but only 22.

Of employees thought the CEO had a clear vision and direction for the company.

Haley Boehning (00:14)
Hello and welcome to Retail Unwrapped.

The Robin Report’s weekly conversation about the trends, the consumer behaviors, and the issues facing retail today. I’m Hayley Boehning and today I’m joined by one of the Robin Report’s great contributors, business journalist Warren Shoulberg for a little bit of an unconventional retail-unwrapped episode. This is an episode that every single CEO that has a store, even just one store, but let alone hundreds of stores, needs to listen to.

So, Warren was very gracious to join me to have a conversation about a tip that we received from one of our Robin Report listeners who happens to work.

On the floor in a very large Manhattan-based flagship store, and was present for the CEO store visit this week. We unpack what that experience that this Robin Report listener had tells us about the roles that CEOs play in culture, in strategy, in alignment, in clarity, in recruiting, in all of the things that happen and can happen during a store visit.

We talk about how CEOs can waste that opportunity to make real human connection, to model the culture that their brand deserves, and to tap into the passionate talent that’s on the floor of their stores to get results now and into the future.

Brands fundamentally are just stories. They’re stories that are both told and also lived. And one of the worst things that we can do as a company, as a brand, is to tell one story and live another. Thank you for joining us for the Robin Report, Retail Unwrapped.

Haley Boehning (01:58)
Thank you for joining us today for a little bit of an not conventional retail unwrapped. I’m joined by Warren, who’s one of our business journalists here at the Robin Report and an expert in the business of retail and the business of being a leader in retail. Warren, thank you so much for joining us.

warren shoulberg (02:16)
Thanks, Haley. Good to be here and good to mouth off about a bit my what I think about things.

Haley Boehning (02:24)
Yes. Well, Warren, as as you know, I was called to to ask you to join us today when I received a voicemail from a friend who will remain anonymous, who works on the floor at one of the largest we’ll say home goods stores in Manhattan, one of their flagship stores, that was visited this week by the CEO.

And the CEO of the store, as you can imagine, the entire store spent days getting ready for this visit. And when the CEO arrived, the team was fairly disappointed in in the way the CEO walked the store. So what I heard from from my friend on the on the ground was the CEO walked the store with the store manager, didn’t introduce themselves to anybody else in the store, didn’t ask any questions, didn’t

try to connect with the team and really seem to have missed a really great opportunity to to be a CEO and and to make that connection with the team. So this is something I’ve heard from lots of folks in retail over the years. And I wonder if maybe you could share your thoughts on what what role does the CEO play when it comes to to leading a large

geographically distributed brand, especially when they when they have these opportunities to to get on the ground.

warren shoulberg (03:56)
So this is one of my pet peeves is that when when the big suits show up in the stores it’s it’s so superficial and it’s such a it’s such a scam because as you said, usually the the store personnel has has worked their butts off to to get the store looking all pretty and and it’s not typical at all of what it looks like. And

you know, it will look like that for about an hour and a half before it gets trashed again. And so that’s the w that’s the first thing is that the the the

business leader is not getting a true representation of what the store looks like. But then to walk around the store and not talk to anybody, not talk to the the rank and file guys, the the people on the front lines, you know, those are the people who really know what’s going on. And they’re talking to customers and they know what the customers are are are saying about the business, like, why are you out of stock on this? Or how come you don’t carry this product? Or or

Hopefully, yeah, I love your assortment in you know in this category and the store looks terrific and and I had a great shopping experience. They just they don’t get any of that and and they get again this 35,000 feet view from the CEO or from the the local store manager not representative at all of what that store is doing. So

It’s it’s a waste of

Haley Boehning (05:32)
Yeah.

warren shoulberg (05:33)
time, pretty much.

Haley Boehning (05:34)
So Warren, as you as you talk about the role of the CEO in a store visit, I heard you talk about a couple different dimensions. There’s the store itself and seeing how things are laid out in the product.

But there’s also connecting with the humans that are in the store. Can you talk a little bit about that? What why would a CEO want to go into one of their thousands of stores or hundreds of stores and connect with the people on the ground?

warren shoulberg (06:02)
So again, th these are the frontline troops, these are the people who you know who are talking to the customers who are who are seeing what what the shopping experience is like. you know, even the store manager is usually in an office in the back. He

they don’t really walk the floor very often either. And if they do, it’s mostly just you know, to pick up a report or something. So the frontline troops are are just invaluable and and

You know, there was a a style of management called and I don’t know who invented it or who who who would credit with this, but you know, kind of management by walking around. And and I’m just a big fan of that. I I was a big fan when I was a manager and and and I think you just you just get a lot by walking around and

You know, was it Yogi Berra who said you know, you can see y you can see a lot of things w when you’re looking around. And I’m not sure I’m quoting Yogi correctly, but that was the that was the intent of his of his message. So yeah. You gotta walk around and you gotta talk to people.

Haley Boehning (07:14)
You know, the other thing that occurs to me is the is the ability of the CEO to model the kind of culture that they’re hoping to see in the store and to see for the brand and in the company. you know, I I understand from folks in the store that the regional manager acts exactly the same way as the CEO. So if the CEO is going to the store and not engaging and not seeing it as an opportunity to connect with humans, then everyone that reports to that CEO is going to see that as a cue for the culture.

What what impact does having a culture that’s where there’s a disconnection between the humans and the leaders? What kind of impacts might that have on the business?

warren shoulberg (07:55)
Well, again, if you’re the CEO and you’re trying to establish a culture or you believe that this is the culture you want your company to have, you know, you gotta do more than just do a video that goes out to the troops or a manifesto. You gotta press the flesh, and and if you’re not doing that, your message is just not getting across. So and and yeah, it’s it’s tough to do if you’ve got hundreds or thousands of stores, but

But it it helps.

Haley Boehning (08:26)
Well, you know, you it’s interesting you mentioned something, Warren, that that really struck me in the story. So this happens to be a brand that I have great affection for as a customer. I’m a great

warren shoulberg (08:35)
Mm-hmm.

Haley Boehning (08:35)
customer of this brand. I can’t tell you it’s it’s embarrassing how much money I’ve spent with this brand in the last coup two decades. But

warren shoulberg (08:40)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (08:43)
and I think about what the brand stands for, the kind of connection to the customer that they’re that they are telling. and it to me it comes back to the brand story is only truly meaningful if it’s both told and lived. So, you know, you talked about a manifesto.

talked about the brand book, right? They’re all of these places whereas brands, very, very passionate people who care about the brand put a lot of effort into these brand books. But if they’re not brought to life through the culture, then they’re just words on the page.

warren shoulberg (09:18)
Totally agree. You’ve you’ve gotta you’ve gotta do it in person. You know, it it’s it’s it’s it’s got to be representative

on on a one-to-one basis or you know, or even the if the CEO comes to visit and he and he wants to do a you know a five or ten minute meeting with with the whole staff before the store opens, and just say, hey, great to see you and you know, here’s why I’m here and and here’s what I’m thinking. And anybody have any questions? You know, God forbid there they would open it up for questions.

So yeah, you gotta you gotta again, I I say press the flesh and I think you gotta do it.

Haley Boehning (10:04)
so Warren, I don’t know if you if you follow Axios, but they did a study a couple of

warren shoulberg (10:08)
Yeah, I do.

Haley Boehning (10:08)
years ago. CEOs kind of in general, not just in retail. And one of the statistics that stuck with me was in their survey nationwide in the US, they found that 81% of leaders said that their employees are energized and motivated.

warren shoulberg (10:26)
Okay.

Haley Boehning (10:26)
But when they asked the employees, only 52% of employees said

warren shoulberg (10:29)
Wow.

Haley Boehning (10:31)
they were energized and motivated. And we see this gap between what the leaders believe to be true and what the employees say is actually true in multiple studies. Yeah,

the majority of leaders said that they believed that they had a clear vision and direction for the company and that they were communicating regularly to their team, but only 22.

Of employees thought the CEO had a clear vision and direction for the company.

So these gaps between the CEO, their belief about their role in terms of communicating vision, communicating purpose, helping people stay aligned, these gaps we see over and over again in the research.

This lack of alignment that we’re seeing between employees and how they feel about their alignment or understanding of the vision of the company and the this gap between what the CEOs feel. I see it showing up in cultural data. So 49% of employees who were polled a few years ago said they were considering leaving their job in two to three years. And I’m wondering, as you follow companies and you follow businesses, do you see lack of clarity?

and lack of alignment showing up in their results in the performance of the company?

warren shoulberg (11:47)
Yeah, I mean it’s it’s it’s it’s a real disconnect and you know, you don’t want to name names and and I don’t have insight into into the ledgers, but you know, you look at a company like Walmart, which frankly did not have the best reputation for treating its employees and had a lot of turnover and

And was just probably not a warm and fuzzy manager. And more recently, to their credit, they have gotten so much better at that and and offering more benefits and more

higher salaries and better opportunities for for promotion. And Eureka, the company, is doing so much better. Now there’s lots of other factors, but you gotta say that that’s part of why Walmart is being more successful today. So and and I don’t want to be Pollyanna, you’ve still got a lot of people that would say Walmart does this and they should be doing this. And so y

You know, it’s never black and white, but it’s a great example of a company that has gotten better in treating its employees and it’s resulted in in in in better financial performance.

Haley Boehning (13:04)
I have to say, I think one of the one of the most remarkable things to me are the number of CFOs who have really keyed into this. CFOs of some of the most successful businesses who understand that this work on culture and connection, community, that these things actually do pay off in the bottom line. And I think I see it when in the businesses that I work with, when they stop using words like fuzzy or soft stuff. You know, these words that we

use these kind of diminutive words that words that diminish the work of culture, of communication, of connection. I think I you can almost hear the mindset of the leadership team in the way they talk about the people side of the business.

warren shoulberg (13:48)
Well and again the CFOs who who you know who have reputation of being accountants and bookkeepers, you know, if they’re getting into this, I think that says a lot that that they understand how important that culture is for a company.

Haley Boehning (14:08)
Remember, you know, years ago

trailing along on store visits for some of the brands that I worked with. And it wasn’t just the CEO, it would be the CEO, the CFO, the head of planning, folks that you might think of as back office folks. And

warren shoulberg (14:23)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (14:24)
the CEO I worked with dragged them along to the stores because as they said, nothing matters until a customer says I’ll take it. And she usually does that in the store. Now we, you know, this increase in in direct to consumer, the increase in in e-commerce,

You know, how how have you seen that maybe impact either positively or negatively the way CEOs think about the store, the store experience and their responsibility in the store?

warren shoulberg (14:52)
again they’ve got to look at at how those kind of policies impact the business and you know how they impact turnover, employee turnover if if

if if a lot of people are leaving on a regular basis the the cost to the business of replacing them and training their the their successors and and getting back up to speed that’s an enormous factor and you know when you’ve got companies that employ thousands or tens of thousands or in some cases hundreds of thousands of employees it it makes it makes a big difference so very important totally agree

with you, Ailey.

Haley Boehning (15:40)
Yeah.

You know, it’s interesting, you know, you you mentioned recruitment as well. And I think about the the leaders that I’ve had the opportunity to interview through the Robin report, especially for our lead like her interview series.

warren shoulberg (15:51)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (15:52)
these are folks that started in the store. you know, I can count probably on two or three hands the number of C level executives, heads of stores, CEOs, heads of technology that started in the store.

warren shoulberg (16:07)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (16:07)
and I know this this particular employee that shared.

The story with me has desires to move up in the company, was really excited about taking this job so that they could they could perhaps have opportunities to move up in the brand, a brand that they also care very much about. and and I don’t think that is going to be something this person will pursue anymore, which is unfortunate because there’s so much incredible talent within our brands that

warren shoulberg (16:35)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (16:35)
when we start to see people, I think, as an org chart and as different levels, and start to identify people on an

Excel spreadsheet rather than get to know them with a name, walk into the store, ask them how they are.

And as you said before, ask them what they’re seeing. That’s a wonderful opportunity, I think, for CEOs to understand the talent of the people on the floor. You know, do you have someone who’s in a store manager position but has incredible insights into the way that visual presentation is happening? You know, do you have someone in the visual presentation space that you’re meeting in the store? Maybe they’re a regional visual presentation person, but gosh, they’ve got fantastic insights in terms of merchandising. As you said earlier, Warren, you’re absolutely right.

the cost of training people, the cost of onboarding people, that alone should have our CEOs spending more time in the store getting to know people.

warren shoulberg (17:28)
Totally.

we haven’t talked about is when these store management walks around the store, God forbid they talk to a customer, you know. I mean it’s you

Haley Boehning (17:38)
Yeah.

warren shoulberg (17:38)
know they’re not talking to their employees and and they’re absolutely not talking to shoppers. And you’ve got the same thing there. And and again, you can’t attach enormous significance to to h what one shopper says.

about about your store or the shopping experience, but you never can tell what you’re gonna learn. And and you know they’re usually the CEO is surrounded by his his handlers and and he never even gets close to a customer. So something else to think about.

Haley Boehning (18:12)
Yes.

Yeah. And I and that also goes true for the home office and and businesses outside of retail. You know, I remember at one company I worked with, we knew the CEO was going to do a a walkthrough when we got new carpet.

and and as you said, you

warren shoulberg (18:28)
Okay.

Haley Boehning (18:29)
know, if you’re seeing the store, if you’re seeing the home office at its absolute best, what are you missing? You know, what are the things that that that you’re missing? And and I also wonder in those instances, what kind of mindset or culture has the CEO established when issues are brought to them, when they see problems in the store, is it seen as a bad thing to share what’s

warren shoulberg (18:51)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (18:52)
not working with the CEO? Or do they see it as a really good thing? to walk up to a CEO and a

Store visit and say, Hey, can I talk to about something? Because I’ve noticed something that just isn’t working for us. I

warren shoulberg (19:03)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (19:03)
remember a store many years ago, which will remain unnamed, where the store planning and construction team was getting lots of feedback saying, When you design the next store, we need more dressing rooms, we need more dressing rooms. And the store design and construction team was getting ready to put in more dressing rooms because they were listening to just the voicemails from the store team. But when the corporate home office team went to the store, what they really

Was half of the dressing rooms that they’d already put in were full of merchandise.

warren shoulberg (19:33)
yeah. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (19:34)
They didn’t have enough backroom storage or off-site storage, and so that’s why they needed more dressing rooms. So it it also

warren shoulberg (19:40)
Fascinating.

Haley Boehning (19:42)
occurs to me that these conversations, not just coming in saying hi, how are you, blessing the fresh and kissing the babies, but actually being in dialogue with the people in the store. As you said, do a stand-up meeting when you first get in there.

warren shoulberg (19:54)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (19:54)
you know, have a conversation with people. What are the things that you’re noticing? What are we doing well? What are we not doing well? What could we do better? what an amazing gift for an executive or receiver.

Senior level leader to be able to have that dialogue, as you said, with the people who see it every single day, and maybe a customer.

warren shoulberg (20:14)
Yeah,

Haley Boehning (20:14)
Crazy.

warren shoulberg (20:15)
you know, insane ideas, yes, absolutely.

Haley Boehning (20:18)
Warren, take a let’s do a little mind experiment here. Let’s imagine that you, Warren, have been promoted to CEO of this anonymous brand that will not remain named. Yes, yes, you’re a

warren shoulberg (20:25)
God forbid, yes, yes. Yes.

Haley Boehning (20:28)
CEO, and and I’m your head of stores, and we are gonna go visit our flagship store. Tell me, walk through for me what you think the perfect store visit would be for that CEO to get what you think a CEO needs to see and needs to hear.

warren shoulberg (20:46)
Well again, you know, and we both mentioned it, th the the idea of of getting there before the store opens and and and and do in kind of a a you know, a group session with the employees.

enormous value to that. And you know, you’re talking about ten or fifteen minutes and you you’ve got to make sure it doesn’t go off on tangents about, hey, you know, the coffee is cold or or I don’t, you know, there’s not enough toilet paper. I I I mean those are important, but you gotta make sure that that you focus on some key issues. So that’s where I would start is is get there early and and have that kind of meeting. And then I would walk around and I’d walk around

you know, almost by myself, without the store manager and without my handlers, and and just wander around and you know and and and see what

what you’re seeing, you know, it depends how big the store is, but but I would come in the front door like like a customer does and and see what you see when you walk in the door, you know. Is it a mess? Is it is it a a welcoming environment? and so I think that’s important. and you know maybe I would have a specific a couple of specific purchasing

assignments that I would go about. So, you know, if I wanted to if I wanted to go look for a new towel, I you know, I would I would go through that experience and see, you know, and see what I see and talk to the people in the towel department. Or if I was looking for a new shirt or or

you know, a skincare product, whatever it was, but but I think that’s a great way that you don’t get you know you don’t get this blurry vision of things that you’re actually doing what a customer would do, which is you know, trying to make a purchase.

I know CEOs are pressed with a lot of a lot of responsibilities and a lot of shareholders and a lot of investor meetings, but get into

Haley Boehning (23:01)
Yeah.

warren shoulberg (23:02)
stores at a regular basis.

And the other thing we didn’t talk about is getting to your competitor stores. you know, how many pe how many people have never been to some of their competitors? you know, I remember when and I mentioned Walmart again, and I don’t mean to to single them out, but you know, I remember when Walmart was first really growing.

Really big and CEOs would would say, I’ve never been in a Walmart. I don’t shop there and my customer doesn’t shop there. And you feel like going, What are you thinking? You know?

Haley Boehning (23:36)
you know as i’m listening to you talk Warren it’s it’s so delightful to have this conversation and be reminded once again that retail fundamentally is about humans and about humanity

warren shoulberg (23:46)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (23:47)
and about human connection. You know whether it’s have happening through direct to consumer, through a website, through through any kind of technology, it’s about humans connecting with other humans through a brand that they are passionate about, that they care about. And when we forget

the humans at the center of our brands, that’s when things go horribly wrong for clarity, for alignment, and ultimately for performance. So thank you for joining me for this conversation. Your insights have been so valuable and I hope that every CEO

That has a store, that has one store, let alone hundreds of stores, let alone a flagship in New York City, will listen to this conversation and think a little bit about how they’re spending their time. Get out into the stores, talk to people, make connections, have conversations, make it okay for people to tell you what’s working and what’s not. And just know that the people that are on the floor in your store are some of your most valuable resources and treat them well.

So thank you, Warren, so much.

warren shoulberg (24:52)
Well, glad to be part of it. It’s it’s a great topic that I don’t think is is brought up enough. So thanks for thanks for advocating for it.