Zoe Switzer (01:01)
Hi Haley. I’m Zoe Switzer. I’m with Jeni’s Splendid Ice Creams and I’m our Chief People Officer.

Haley Boehning (01:06)
Thank you so much for joining us today, Zoe. It is a delight to see your face and have you on Retail Unreal.

Zoe Switzer (01:13)
Thank you, Haley. Thank you for inviting me. And it’s a delight to see your face. I’ve known you a very long time. It makes me very happy to see you.

Haley Boehning (01:19)
It is.

It makes me happy to see you too. so let’s just start with something that’s kind of built into your title, which is the word people.

Zoe Switzer (01:29)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (01:30)
the word human resources is not there. And I

Zoe Switzer (01:32)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (01:33)
noticed that from the beginning when you first joined Jeni’s. Can we talk can we talk just a little bit about why people’s in your title and not culture or HR human resources?

Zoe Switzer (01:43)
Yes, thank you. So everything having to do with the human aspect of a company, which in my mind is every single thing about having a company, is something that I get the privilege of

on and focusing on and tinkering with and supporting people on and along with the team that I get to be a part of. So you know a company, Jeni’s our founder always said a company is a community and a community is comprised of human beings and those human beings you know when I think about a person’s quality of life you can imagine that some significant portion is determined by the things outside of work.

But I think a lot of us would say that maybe even more than 50% of our quality of life is determined by or at least heavily influenced by what happens at work. So the privilege of being an employer is a really big deal. you’re having an opportunity to have a meaningful impact on people’s lives and whether that’s their

life in terms of whether they can put food on the table and pay their rent, whether that’s their life in terms of whether they develop skills that serve them well at work. But also by the way, they s help me manage conflict on a Saturday when I wanna go to a different restaurant than my life partner does and we’re not sure how to navigate that. Like

What if I learn at work how to navigate that in a way that makes my relationships more meaningful? so Chief People Officer I think is representative of the way this company thinks about companies, which is that they’re communities made up of people and I feel really lucky to get to think about all things people at Jeni’s.

Haley Boehning (03:27)
Right. Well, and you alluded to it earlier, but so it’s been so much fun watching your journey at Jeni’s from pre when you were considering taking the role to now 10 years later, which is remarkable. Ten years leading leading

Zoe Switzer (03:41)
I know. It’s been

Haley Boehning (03:43)
people for for Jeni’s. So I wonder if you can take me back to that moment. There were lots of things that you could do and lots of things that you’ve done in your background.

What was it about this opportunity at Jeni’s that attracted you as somebody who leads people and leads that work?

Zoe Switzer (04:01)
Well, I knew you before I became an independent consultant, and then I spent many years being an independent consultant where I thought, you know, hey, I love this work so much. I wanna do this work for lots of businesses and lots of companies. that way I can learn more, meet more people, but have an impact in more places. And I was starting to feel like that felt a little like a messy patchwork quilt at a certain point after many years, and was thinking

I get to swoop in, do something, typically swoop back out, and I wish I were more in the trenches over a long period of time with a group of people where you really you rise and fall together and I just felt ready for that and but hadn’t made up a dis made a decision and I got a call from Jeni’s and the question was, We need a consultant for two weeks. Would you be willing to be a consultant at Jeni’s for the HR function for two weeks?

And I was here for a day and I went home and told my husband, I don’t ever want to leave. I want them to want them. I would like them to want me to stay longer than two weeks. And so at the end of two weeks,

It turned into four. And at the end of four, my then boss, our then CEO, John Lowe, said, Give me another two weeks. And then we got to six weeks. And I made the joke every day when I would come home, I’d be like, Put a ring on it, put a ring on it. Let me let me stay. Let me stay. and at some point along the way, I think it was six or eight weeks in, we both kind of looked at each other and I was like, I I’m waiting for the conversation. Can we have the conversation? And part of the job for those first two weeks had been like, Hey, let’s find a great candidate.

slate of new leaders for our HR function and it wasn’t long before I was hoping that I would be the lead candidate on that slate and then it turned into that and we’ve gotten to build a team since then. I was a one person show for those years. That was interesting. I think we had somewhere in the ballpark of eighteen or twenty shops and now we have I think ninety-three, ninety-four, ninety-five, seventeen or eighteen states. and it’s been a different job every six months at least. And there are moments I’m

you know, able to call in my wonderful experts in my network to say, hey, I’m a little over my skis on something. The company needs something from me I’ve never done before help me. And I just feel really fortunate. I’ve got a lot of a lot of great people on the team, a lot of great colleagues that are trying to do really good work here and are doing really good work here and then good experts outside of Jeni’s that help us keep all the people wheel wheels turning.

Haley Boehning (06:32)
That’s good. So tell me, you talked about this, how much the company has grown in the last 10 years. but it started when you joined, it was a founder-led company. What

Zoe Switzer (06:43)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (06:44)
what is the what are the differences or the nuances of of being ahead of people at a founder-led business than some of the other retail businesses where you have have worked in this space, whether it’s limited brands or tween brands or goodwill or some of those other spaces?

Zoe Switzer (07:02)
I’d say one thing is that the imprint of the way Jeni’s views business and service and people and employment is on everything. I like to tell this story that the first day I was at Jeni’s, Jeni’s said

She met me, hi, I’m Jeni’s. I said, Hi, I’m Zoe. And she said, I want you to do every single thing with creativity at the heart of what you’re doing. And I said, Do you know no one’s ever said that to an HR person before? I don’t think HR people are typically told like, I’d really like you to embed all your work in a heart of creativity. but I went, What would that even look like? And then I thought, I can see what that would look like. That’s so liberating, that’s so oxygenating, that’s so exciting to think about and

infusing creativity and everything we do as a human resources function versus infusing like like protection or infusing rigorous you know

protocols or they’re just it was it’s just an entirely different way to look at it. And so I guess to to more precisely answer your question, I inherited a a role in a place that already had very established norms that reflected Jeni’s heart, Jeni’s gut, Jeni’s head. And we hire naturally, we hire and cultivate the careers of people who find that appealing also. And so there are a lot of things about my job. I don’t ever

wanna

make it sound like I don’t have a challenging job. I do and I work hard, but also there are challenges I don’t have to face that other people do because of the foundation she set. And we’re almost twenty five years old now, the company is. And so

We kind of joke around here that it’s very much like a human being and that like at age twenty we were kinda like, We kind of could do this without mom telling us what to do all the time, like every second, you know. And then at like twenty-two or twenty-three, we’re like, crap, we have to pay our own bills. Mom’s like totally not, you know, or we have to do whatever the thing is, but like a little bit more independence when we needed to become more independent and so I think there’s some really healthy growing up for everyone in ways, but then but just like being a human, you

know, hopefully you have an environment where the imprint of that person that in our case a founder is on everything you do, no matter whether they’re standing there over your shoulder or they aren’t. that is how it is here. And I I really I know it sounds like

I drank Kool-Aid or something, but I do wanna say like I got here and I thought I had been a fan. I had eaten the ice cream. I’ve lived in Columbus a long time. I’m one of the people that you know, came to the scoop shop on a minus four day because I knew it would be a short line and I was excited. And so I I liked I liked the company and the story and the food and

But I I would I will just say I got here and I thought, well, I’m very prepared that what’s behind the curtain won’t be exactly what’s projected out into the world. And that’s kind of how things work, that’s okay. And I got here and realized like there really is a deep, genuine commitment to you know, and and by the way, I’m not implying we’re perfect. We do dumb things, we’re wrong, we do the wrong thing, we make mistakes just like any other human place. But there’s a genuine commitment to quality, there’s a genuine commitment to

Having a heart that is trying to do the right thing for someone else and maybe even make their life a little bit better. I love the stories from our sourcing team about, you know, so-and-so farmer just put his daughter through college because we needed his XYZ product or whatever. And so just I it’s it’s there’s a lot to be excited about.

Haley Boehning (10:47)
Yeah,

you’ve I’d love to extend this metaphor a little bit farther, this idea of the business being a human. because I’ve heard this from so many founders and and leaders in founder-led businesses. There are values, there’s a vision for the future that doesn’t exist today, there’s this sense of mission and purpose. Like how how do those things live today within the organization?

Zoe Switzer (11:11)
one of them one of the first thing that comes to mind when you ask that question is that no one here is stuck with their face in a textbook of any sort. Jeni’s said, like, no, you engage your heart, your gut, your head, you decide what makes intuitive sense to you, and then you follow it and you create it. And if and people here are very resilient and creative in how they solve

wild challenges and I do think that part of the reason this place is oriented that way is because there was no one starting off the company like this is what my MBA textbook told me to do. In fact she kind of really actively said that’s that’s not how I’m gonna guide my decision making. And I remember hearing stories about her standing in the

top of the short the north market and counting people and using that count as a way of creating a business plan and I thought she didn’t make a business plan by looking up in a textbook how do you create a business plan. She went to the North Market and started counting human beings and then figured it out.

Haley Boehning (12:22)
Now, so if you’re not, if the team is not being led by a textbook and if your leaders are being told, use your creativity in your particular your function or your skill, what are the things that guide decision making at Jeni’s?

Zoe Switzer (12:38)
There are foundational non-negotiables.

our marketing team would know if this is a tagline or a slogan. I don’t know exactly what we call it, but that flavor is everything. We don’t make anything that isn’t delicious and are we have a commitment to like

We don’t make a you know a hot sauce ice cream unless someone can figure out a way to make a hot so it being provocative or creative isn’t interest interesting to us unless it’s also a flavor that just makes us shake our head and go, Are you joking? Are you kidding? This tastes so incredible. So I think there’s a commitment to flavor. There’s certainly a commitment to the quality of the ingredient and trying to find that ingredient in a way where you’re partnering with a human being for whom

it’s meaningful to them like in their life that they’re partnering with us. and we’re we’re lucky we have a big finance and accounting well I say big there there are a few people also but finance and accounting team where when we need that healthy tension of you know use resources judiciously and wisely because we don’t have endless resources

and also make something incredibly creative and decadent and delicious, there’s never an answer of like cut cut the quality corner so that you can have the cost of goods sold meet some kind of some kind of number. So

I think it’s a lot of people holding hands on flavor, holding hands on quality, holding hands on what we call our fellowship model, which is let’s be in fellowship with other companies in order to make what we make where it makes our lives better and it makes their lives better and we look for the win-win, not the how can we get one up on somebody else. And that really feels rich. That’s a rich way of making something that feels really good. And it’s not just negotiation because my job is to win at the expense of

Others, it’s negotiation because my job is to find opportunities to partner, and that makes for a very different supply chain.

Haley Boehning (14:39)
Yeah.

So the you this this stakeholder model that you’re that you’re outlining here, this idea of, you

Zoe Switzer (14:42)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (14:45)
know, finding win-win-win opportunities for those stakeholders, you’ve mentioned a few of those stakeholders, you know, the farmers and the suppliers and the people within the organization. You’ve also talked about values and principles that you’re committed to.

Zoe Switzer (14:58)
Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (15:01)
how does how do all those things come to bear for you when things are tough, when there’s a difficult situation?

How how do you handle that at Jeni’s that might surprise people?

Zoe Switzer (15:12)
Think the company has a long track record of leaders saying, What is a decision that feels anchored in integrity and anchored in being thoughtful about other people? And then you do that thing, even when it can be a little bit painful or hard. you know, as an HR person, you’re constantly looking at you know, employee relations issues or

decisions you have to make in order to how to navigate people’s needs. And one of the ways I think about human resources is like you have an individual person with a need, they’re on a team with a need, they’re in a scoop shop with a need. That scoop shop’s in a market with a need, and then that market is in a bunch of other markets in a company with a need. You got all

these needs and it it’s so lovely when HR can make those things line up and people are getting those needs met and entities, the shops, the communities, the company. It’s when there’s a disconnect and maybe there’s a team member that’s not getting something they think they want or need. And that’s different than what the shop needs. And you’re just trying to navigate a lot of dynamics and healthy tensions. so there are calls to make constantly about

how to navigate gray areas or people’s pain, frankly. People’s

Difficult life circumstances and companies are really just like we’ve said in the very beginning of this conversation, they’re conglomerations of people. So you’re navigating difficult circumstances all the time, and there is a through line of integrity that I think we all try really hard to live to, and no one’s perfect. So we do try to learn and be better every day. Like we have a really cool practice here. There are a few folks on a team where they volunteer.

Their time outside of their regular day jobs to come up with speakers to come and speak to us to expand our perspective. That’s the entire purpose of this group finding speakers. And they will. We had an individual, this man had had 10 years of incarceration and in his his history. He came in to tell us about incarceration and how that changed him and how he’s used that as a way to be a force for good going forward. We’ve talked to people who deal with challenges. some of

them just sort of broke my heart wide open and made me a better person by listening to them. But that’s the kind of thing that some people do around here is like just look for opportunities to broaden perspectives, be a better person. And I think there’s well

there’s a moment when Jeni’s said, like, I really would like us to never say we’re the best ice cream. Best is not creative. Best is like an end state and we will never be the best. I’d really like us to frame this up as that we’re always striving to be better. And she

Haley Boehning (18:00)
Mm.

Zoe Switzer (18:00)
wanted that for the human beings as well. Like you don’t rest and say, I’m good enough. You say like I can always learn. I can always grow. I can always learn from other people. And there is a mindset like that around here for the most part. And like I said, we all

we all fall back into bad habits or occasionally but there’s there’s a through line there that we try to stick to.

Haley Boehning (18:23)
So it’s interesting as I think about your your first few months or first few years there, you had the founder with you. it was a smaller team. You had a smaller number of scoop shops, a smaller number of markets. There was probably a a process of osmosis with which you learned,

Zoe Switzer (18:40)
Ha ha.

Haley Boehning (18:42)
you know, so many of these, these values and these principles and these ways of thinking. As the business has grown and scaled, how have you thought about

growing and scaling that osmosis, that that process of teaching and helping people have insights the way that you’ve had.

Zoe Switzer (19:02)
When I first got here

Jeni’s was in the shops all the time talking to people and so I remember sometimes the way I would discover an HR issue that I needed to tackle was because the employee would send her an email and say, Something is happening here. I don’t think it’s what you would want. What should I do? And I loved the fact that that’s how I would learn of things was that they were they knew our founder so well or how our founder wanted the business to operate that they would email her and then I would find out and then I would go give it the attention that it needed. So then as time

went on and we got bigger and that was certainly, you know, you can’t be everywhere at once and you do have to times need to change and evolve. And I remember one day thinking like, what can we do so that that same imprint or at least as close as we can replicate,

i is possible and our former CEO John Lowe, he he once said, it was right around that time, he said, How can we be the best employer for a sixteen year old that they could ever have? How can we help that sixteen year old in Atlanta who might might not have even had a role model for great employment or had a good employment experience or they might not have left and right had great service provided to them where they’ve gone. So like how do we help them know what does good employment look and feel like? How can I be a good employee and not get in my own way? How can I

Be a person who provides exceptional service, even if I haven’t been in a ton of opportunities to experience that myself. So we created something called Start Strong and Thrive, which was a series of courses for an onboarding new employee. I think the total time commitment is something like an hour, hour and a half. So it’s not a ton, but it’s enough to say we at Jeni’s have a welcoming and respectful work environment. You are a key part of this. Every single human at Jeni’s is part of the in work, the work.

environment is part of determining what this work environment is like for you and for everyone else, you have a really important role. Let’s be really clear with you about what that role is. We’re gonna uphold high standards. We’re gonna treat other people with dignity and respect. We’re gonna treat ourselves with dignity and respect. We’re gonna

We’re gonna problem solve together. We’re gonna talk about what we need when we need it. And we’re going to cultivate an awareness of biases. We’re going to have a commitment to seeing one another as important individuals and not seeing one another as one part of a group of people that I make assumptions about. And so trying to hit head on.

How can I help each one of us be that thoughtful, caring person with high standards and somebody who sustains a welcoming and work environ welcoming and respectful work environment as much as possible when you employ sometimes twenty two hundred people and there’s a lot of

There’s a lot going on. So you can’t

Haley Boehning (21:52)
Yeah.

Zoe Switzer (21:52)
expect it to be tidy. You know, I I think I was drawn to

Haley Boehning (21:55)
Mm-hmm.

Zoe Switzer (21:55)
HR because I love structure and tidiness and I love good healthy work dynamics

We talk a lot at Jeni’s about empathy with boundaries, meaning if you over-index on empathy, then you actually cannot sustain enough structure for things to be anything but chaos. but

Haley Boehning (22:14)
Hmm.

Zoe Switzer (22:15)
if you over-index on boundaries, you don’t have enough flexibility to attend to human issues. So we really work to the best we can at least hit that middle ground of having that empathy with boundaries as we navigate lots of people things. So

Haley Boehning (22:29)
Hmm. I love

that empathy with boundaries. I you know, you the when you said empathy, it reminded me of a story that I remember John when John Lowe was CEO telling about an issue in one of the scoop shops, and it was a delicate issue, and it was the first time you had dealt with this issue, and he just picked up the phone and called the person and

Zoe Switzer (22:53)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (22:53)
said, You know, I understand that things have not been the way they should be, that

Zoe Switzer (22:58)
Yes.

Haley Boehning (22:59)
You know,

you have had some interactions with your coworkers that are not acceptable. I want to tell you that they’re not acceptable. And here’s my phone number and call me. And I

Zoe Switzer (23:09)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (23:10)
remember him retelling that story. And then I was started counting like the number of employees and the number of scoop shops and wondering, like that kind of human touch feels it’s like something you do when you have five stores, but not something when you’re in as many markets as you are. Like how how does that

You know, you use the word human a lot to describe the the environment at Jeni’s. How do you maintain that?

Zoe Switzer (23:32)
I think we aspire.

To not, I mean, it is an absolute reality that you can’t have a company unless you can financially thrive enough to have that company and sustain that company. And of course, part of HR is about paying people. You, I and others cannot receive a predictable paycheck every two weeks unless you do all the right things to keep this engine moving. So I’m about to give you an answer, but I don’t want anyone to walk away thinking I’m saying, don’t worry about the money. Like that’s just a foundational

component of what it takes to run a company. You have to have it. And you have to be smart with it and you have to think about it. But it can’t be the only thing you think about. And sometimes it has to be the second or third thing the thing that you think about.

I think it’s making the commitment to doing the things that aren’t efficient. Efficiency is sexier to talk about and to think about, maybe.

But efficiency also means you don’t do hard things that matter a lot sometimes. It might mean you didn’t get on that plane when you needed to get on the plane to go talk to that employee directly instead of picking up the phone.

I I s sometimes I think about half of my job is saying no to the salespeople who want to sell me the things that infuse quote unquote efficiency but remove my connection to the people that we work with. I we all went through the wave of employee self-service and how sexy it sounded to have employees do everything themselves. And again, I’m not saying that efficiency isn’t important, but like

I’ve said to people on the phone when they call to sell me the employee self-service module of something, like, okay, so you want me to tell all of our employees to do all of that by themselves so that I’m not burdened by what the job I got hired to do, which is to serve them and make sure their employment is like meaningful and as good as it possibly can be. Like, I don’t that’s not what I want to do. so I I think it’s about balancing out the need for a financial

view and filter on things, the need for an efficiency vil view and filter on things, with a need for what upholds people’s dignity, what upholds my dignity, why am I an important component in this? Like here’s another, you know, Jeni-ism that taking care of yourself isn’t selfish. Taking care of yourself is the way you have the resources and the self-regulation and the fullheartedness in order to go take care of your coworker next.

and by taking care of your coworker next, that care and that that that abundance is going to flow over the dipping cabinet to our customer and it’s not the opposite. It’s not the customer is always right at the expense of the coworker and the self because you start to deplete the system. And that was a different way to look at it than I was used to.

Haley Boehning (26:39)
Yeah,

it’s great. So just that thought itself reminds me of the word radical. It’s a radical way of looking at the job that you have in a growing scaling company. I wonder, like, are are there other things that when you look at the the rest of the world, you think, gosh, this doesn’t feel radical to us because it’s aligned with who we are and our values, but it’s pretty radical in the marketplace.

Zoe Switzer (27:08)
every

day frankly

Haley Boehning (27:09)
Mm.

Zoe Switzer (27:11)
I don’t know why it’s radical to think that the way we feel when we work together should matter as much as any other piece of it. I don’t know

I don’t know why it would be radical to think that we want to help a separate company that we partner with to buy an ingredient. and I do see a lot of companies striving to be forces for good in the world. And so I think we’re in a lot of good kind like I remember moments when I’ve heard about what other organizations have done and I’m just blown away. So I really don’t want to make it sound like I think

We have it right or are a pinnacle of any sort. It’s all over the map. And like I said, we have so much to learn, get better every day, need to get better every day. but I do think that we have created this world where the currency is usually literally currency meaning money, or the currency is time. And

those are important but they’re blinding. And so when you can marry those up with other currencies like like connection is almost cliche now to talk about, but I like really mean it. Like

Am I in the scoop shops enough to do my job well? Well, that’s like, do I am I out there in the shop talking to the human beings who are talking to our customers to learn from them? And I sit in an office in Columbus, Ohio. And if I as this person who identifies as a a woman and am in a scoop sh in in a in an office in Columbus, think that I understand what’s going on in the cater in a scoop shop and what they have to deal with, like I’ll never forget.

road trips I took as in this job, I went to that Decatur scoop shop and there had been an individual who was houseless who came in, had used some needles, was in the bathroom using those needles. The needles got left in there in an elementary school group of kids come in, they all go in, they’re going into the bathroom. And we had a shopkeeper who’s trying to navigate keeping those kids safe. And I thought anyone who thinks that they understand the job of a shopkeeper of a Jeni’s scoop shop has not been in a scoop shop enough. And I haven’t

Been in a scoop shop enough. So just really getting those moments of humility to realize the only way to do my job well is to have constant perspective exchange with individuals who are doing very different jobs around the company, because otherwise we can’t our human resources function can’t serve them if we don’t understand what they’re trying to do.

Haley Boehning (30:01)
Yeah.

It’s interesting. You’ve talked about a lot of specificity in, you know, specific decisions, specific moments. and something that you and I have talked about together is what is culture?

Zoe Switzer (30:13)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (30:14)
you know, a lot of people say, you should talk to Jeni’s. Like they’ve really got a fantastic culture. So where did you buy it? you know, in what store did you procure such culture? And maybe you can you can talk about how you see culture as an outcome.

And an outcome of what?

Zoe Switzer (30:32)
Yes.

we don’t talk about it as much as I think most the other employers I’ve had, which have all by the way been wonderful. I’ve had the best places to learn and grow, so I feel very lucky. but there are a lot of places that talk a lot about culture which exactly to your point is a result of a whole lot of other things. And you know you can define culture I would imagine just like almost an infinite number of ways, but it’s the it’s what you’re what you’re waiting in every day as you do your work. And

And so I’ll give you one specific example that in my mind is a it’s the the cause when culture is the effect, and that’s that we train our people managers that the departing employees’ dignity is your top priority as they depart. So for example, if let’s say I’m Zoe, I’ve worked in a scoop shop, I’ve had some real performance issues, maybe I’ve really been a thorn in Haley’s side for the last four months and you’ve been

Just really trying hard to support me to be successful at Jeni’s, but man, have I been a challenge and it’s not been easy. And then on the day that I walk out the door, either voluntarily or involuntarily, how does Haley behave with the rest of the team in that scoop shop? Does Haley say, Thank goodness she’s gone, she was driving me crazy for months, or does Haley say, She’s no longer with the company? I’m really wishing her well, and then leave it at that. So what we train our people managers to realize is that the way you talk about the person who isn’t in the room determines how the people

who are in the room think they’re getting talked about when they aren’t in the room. The way the person who departed the scoop shop today, either involuntarily or voluntarily gets talked about after they leave, tells those people that are still there how they will get talked about after they leave. So that’s one example of trying to like put into words what are these not subtle at all things that sort of feel subtle, but they aren’t, that determine how we feel when we walk in at the beginning of the day.

And whether or not we still have a spring in our step at the end of the day when we walk back out the door. And again, no one anywhere is perfect, certainly not here. But like one of the ways I use my energy all day, it’s not because I’m worried about how people are talking about me when I’m not in the room. In fact, I just heard somebody last week say to one of my coworkers, Regis, I just don’t sense any backstabbing here. And he goes, No, we front stab.

And it was of course he’s kind of joking, but the point was like if you’re irritated and so you think somebody really just did something that you’re not happy with.

The norm should be I walk in and I’m saying to that person, like, I’m really frustrated. I’m gonna go take five deep breaths, but and maybe walk around the block, but then when I come back, could we please talk? Of course you’re expected to regulate your emotions. Of course you’re expected to be respectful even when you’re super mad, especially when you’re super mad. And like differentiating being super mad doesn’t mean you can be disrespectful. You you can do both. Being direct and kind is a thing. It’s a thing. So that’s those are the types of things we

actually train here that I think help keep that ball rolling of having a high expectation for handling yourself in a skillful way interpersonally with others so that the focus can be on

Getting the results we’re each paid to get. Like I get a paycheck, and I’m expected to do certain things in order to earn that paycheck, and that’s not a small, that’s that’s it’s a real meaningful exchange. So am I doing the things that make it right for this company to give me that paycheck at the end of every two weeks? so that’s sort of those business results and the results of the job I do. The other piece is from a relationship standpoint, do I treat other people the way they deserve to be treated? Am I good to my own self?

enough that I have a reservoir here to in in enable my serving others.

And then am I, you know, do I manage my work, manage my time, manage my interactions with others in a way that is like business processes that generally make sense and are smart. I think, you know, we’ve all had something happen where we have to do something a certain way where like make it make sense what on earth is going on. And I do feel like here we should all be very curious for hearing that feedback, like open to that feedback. If someone comes to me and says, the way HR just handled X and Y and Z just made my job.

a lot harder, made me take a lot more time or was more expensive than it needed to be. So hopefully that gives you a sense of the kinds of things that I I I think sort of over time those small that aren’t so small

things that we do or say or don’t do and don’t say, they equate to an outcome of what what work environment are we swimming in, what we’re all fish, what what water are we swimming in? And you know, here’s another example of something I think changes the way people view things at Jeni’s. our founder says that her most, I believe she says her proudest moment was dropping out of college.

And I remember the first time I heard her say that and I felt this liberation of like, this is a place where your proudest moment involves bravery. Your proudest moment involves being who you actually are. Your proudest moment doesn’t necessarily mean you got a particular certification or degree or

professional attainment of some something. It’s about bravery and genuineness about who you are as a person. so that’s carried through her her pride and bravery about things like that and who she is as a person have carried through and who we’ve hired, who gets who

Haley Boehning (36:29)
Mm-hmm.

Zoe Switzer (36:29)
who likes being here and stays, and what kind

Haley Boehning (36:31)
Yeah.

Zoe Switzer (36:32)
of values get perpetuated.

Haley Boehning (36:34)
Well, there

so two follow-up questions from you, just from that story. One is about story. So so much of how you’ve shared with us the values and the principles have come through these stories, these origin

Zoe Switzer (36:50)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (36:51)
stories of, you know, here was the moment early in the business that this thing happened and this is how we applied our values to it. How much storytelling do you do in the business to keep those things alive?

Zoe Switzer (37:05)
I

don’t really that’s a it’s a really interesting question. I don’t know because I don’t I don’t I only can think that way. Like I I chose this field because I think in terms of people stories and it’s what informs me of what to do and what not to do. I remember

The movie 1776, and the story is about like John and Abigail Adams’ love story. And I remember saying this entire part of our history just made sense to me because I actually wasn’t thinking about it in terms of a year on a timeline and a war, and how many people died and what weapons were used. And it I was actually like interpreting the entire story through the love story of two human beings, and I was like

Haley Boehning (37:53)
Yeah.

Zoe Switzer (37:54)
God, I’m s this just who I am and it’s just how my brain works. But so many things made sense to me after I thought of it through that lens of love letters and that timeline of events helps me make sense of a whole lot of things. So to answer your question, I’m not sure how much of it is me and how I think and how I learn. I just know that I feel here like I learn because I see these examples and people talk about these examples and and I notice these examples.

people doing things with it’s it’s a just a different balance. I like to say we when we recruit for employees, I like to talk to our team members about head heart gut recruiting. So it’s like

not only do you as the individual meeting the applicant or the interviewee, you’re you should be paying attention like with your head, is this person am I thinking about what I need to expect this person to do heart wise, is this person am I am I able to make a connection? Is this person able to make a connection? And then gut, like what’s my gut tell me about this? But you’re also applying the head and the heart and the gut to the applicant in that do they have the capability of doing what they’re going to receive a paycheck to do? Do they have the heart

to be good to themselves and their coworker and their customer? And do they have the gut to determine right from wrong, good from bad, gray area, black and white area, what to do when no one’s watching all those things. And so so I think from a storytelling standpoint, we I I I have stories because I watch people do it differently here. And then I notice and then I say wow that felt better than what I thought was going to happen or what I read in the textbook when I was in school or what I saw happen in some other story.

Haley Boehning (39:38)
the second thing I wanted to ask you which was you’ve you’ve said to me in the past that you feel like in some ways retail has lost the forest for the trees in the way we think about this work, the work of people. What did you mean by that? And and can you give an example?

Zoe Switzer (39:55)
think it goes back to that using that word currency and I don’t and I mean it I don’t know if it’s the literal, the figurative, the whatever, but if the only filter we’re using for our decision making is money, then you often actually make yourself make less money. So

It’s sort of this ironic and and circuitous and complicated mix of things that I can’t articulate very well. Except that I know when I see something done in a way that makes me

Whew, I felt that. I’m proud of that. I like being part of that. I got energy from that. I want to keep doing that. so you know, it might be where we allow policy exceptions versus where we don’t allow policy exceptions. Like we have this brilliant person on our HR team named Liz, who every, you know, she’s sort of our policy expert. And I remember her saying to me, There is no better place for a policy exception than the bereavement policy. Everyone

there is no bigger opportunity to hear what someone needs and then say, of course you don’t only get three days bereavement for that. Of course we’re gonna make a policy exception for that. But of course you also need standards and guidelines and structure to give people an opportunity to know what to expect if they are to incur a loss. So so forest for the trees is like moments when a company might just say like, nope, sorry, that’s not how we do things, we just do it this one way. And I and it’s always

healthy balance but being able to figure out when do I need flexibility and when is flexibility actually not helpful when is consistency actually draining the life out of something if I force you to do the exact same thing in Columbus Ohio as the way you serve a customer in Texas in what ways is that valuable and good and effective and in what ways have I just taken all the joy or creativity or juice out of the scoop shop or the experience.

So the forest for the trees

concept is just like taking that step back and thinking with a a willingness to think with a little more depth, a willingness to think with a little more of like, what

I’m also an employee. I’m also a human. This isn’t a like, what do they want? It’s like, well, what would I want? Well, I would want communication. I would want care. I would want I would want dignity to be a top priority. I would want a a broader, more thoughtful perspective when making these decisions. Like that’s what that’s what people all want.

Haley Boehning (42:45)
Yeah.

Zoe Switzer (42:46)
Then it’s really easy to make either through because of the need for speed, the need for efficiency, need for

or a a financial perspective on something, it’s easy for us to sometimes do things that just actually don’t serve us very well in the long run or even in the short run.

Haley Boehning (43:02)
So earlier you mentioned something that came from your founder, this this belief that we have to take care of ourselves first. And then when we take care of ourselves and we have that time, we come back to our work, you know, re-energized. It’s yeah.

Zoe Switzer (43:16)
Yes, that it’s not selfish. That’s th that was a mind blower

for me. It’s not selfish to take care of yourself. That’s actually the only way you can be generous and kind and self regulated to to give to others. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (43:29)
to others. So

I’d I’d love for you to talk a little bit about w how that comes to life practically for Jeni’s. I think you have a sabbatical program. Am I right about that?

Zoe Switzer (43:39)
Yeah. we have a program where after every three years of consecutive service, a person gets a month off paid. and it’s not a director’s and up get this or it’s a every single role, part-time, full-time, any level, is eligible to have a month off paid every three years.

And I love nothing more than what are I call sabbatical stories. Just as soon as the person comes back, I say, tell me everything. And they’re all fascinating. And this is gonna sound so extreme, but like every story makes you fall in love with the person and the story because

It’s so them. I remember one guy who said he had always dreamed of staying in his apartment and playing the guitar as long as possible. And he stayed in his apartment and played the guitar for a month. And he said it was just the greatest thing that could have ever happened. And he said his girlfriend was really mad at him because she wanted to do other things. So three years later they traveled Europe.

so the next one was totally different, but that’s the way he wanted to spend it. I’ve heard stories of you know.

individuals who work really long difficult hours here having a month to spend with their newborn or their toddler or their grandmother before she passed away or you know getting to know their neighbor in a way that they didn’t they had no idea and they built that connection. So so many opportunities in a month where a person is told, it’s actually important that you do not check email. It’s not like like we’re gonna give you a sabbatical but then you have to like it’s an very written rule like no.

No, no, that’s not the point. The point, your duty on that month of time is to refresh and restore and get inspired. And whatever that looks like for that person is completely their business and it looks so different for every person.

But sabbatical stories just really light up my my day when I hear them. The other the other thing

Haley Boehning (45:49)
Yes.

Zoe Switzer (45:49)
I didn’t expect out of sabbaticals, but that has been really interesting is that while a person’s gone for a month, everyone else has to cover for them. So there’s this almost like unintended consequence of appreciation that gets cultivated because while that person is gone, that person is so appreciative of their coworkers that are covering for them and their co-workers

are realizing what goes on in their day-to-day work for a whole month and then having to do those things and like realizing, whoa, I had no idea. And I remember we have we always have a one person payroll department, which is a big deal. I mean, that’s a very important job. and if that person’s on sabbatical for a month, you can imagine you don’t get any wiggle room there. Everyone still has to get paid during the month they’re gone. And I remember this was many years ago, the person who

Haley Boehning (46:38)
Yeah, when I sh you know, I checked.

Zoe Switzer (46:40)
was the director of finance at the time

Who was then also our payroll person at the time for that entire month? I said, I bet you can’t wait until she comes back because you must be so tired of doing two full jobs. And he stopped and he said, I’m just so appreciative of her. I had no idea

Haley Boehning (46:56)
Mm-hmm.

Zoe Switzer (46:57)
what she was doing every two weeks. And now I I completely get it. And I realized, like,

Haley Boehning (47:01)
Wow.

Zoe Switzer (47:02)
what a beautiful, unintended consequence of that

Haley Boehning (47:05)
Mm.

Zoe Switzer (47:05)
opportunity is that we appreciate each other more.

Haley Boehning (47:09)
That’s amazing.

That’s a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing it.

Zoe Switzer (47:12)
I’ve had multiple companies reach out to me to say, we’ve heard about your sabbatical program. We’re excited about it. We would like to mimic it. Could you talk to us about your sabbatical policy and how you implement that? And I say, Yes, great. I’m so excited for you. I think it’s so amazing. And then they’ll say, Okay, great, we’re gonna implement this for like this level and up. And I’ve said, I I just have to tell you, don’t like just don’t even touch it until you can offer it to everyone. This will impact because the people who wouldn’t be eligible for it will be covering for people.

who are eligible for it and that is not a dynamic you want to cultivate. The beauty of having it for everyone is that as you cover for one another, it just makes you appreciate that you get that opportunity later and other people will be covering for you as well. And the reciprocity is an essential part of the deal. So I wanted to call that out because I can sit here and tell you all day how great it is. It’s also extraordinarily expensive. It’s extraordinarily difficult to maintain. We have three month

policy for birthing parents for for that’s three months of paid leave a month for the non-birthing parent. So let’s just say you’re in a department with five people and someone has a baby and someone else’s life partner had a baby and someone else’s life partner had a baby and two people are eligible for sabbatical, you start to say like this is not working and then you say, well, it’s going to, so let’s figure it out. And then you do. but it it isn’t. that’s this is part of us talking about like efficiency can’t be your number one thing or can’t

Convenience can’t be your number one thing all the time. They matter, but it can’t be the only true north.

Haley Boehning (48:49)
Yeah,

absolutely. Well, that’s great. I I want to end with one final question for you. So I want you to imagine that

Zoe Switzer (48:57)
Okay.

Haley Boehning (48:57)
you have a direct line to all of the other heads of people in the retail industry right now, and

Zoe Switzer (49:02)
Yeah. Okay.

Haley Boehning (49:05)
you you can give them one piece of advice they have to take.

Zoe Switzer (49:07)
Yeah. Mm.

Haley Boehning (49:10)
One thing that a piece of advice that you they have to implement in their business, what advice would you give them that you think would have the greatest impact on earth?

industry.

Zoe Switzer (49:19)
The

piece of advice I would give is to stop wondering what they want. So I am an employee and I am a human and I want some version of the same thing every other employee and human wants, which is safety.

upholding of my dignity. I’d like to matter. I’d like to do work that matters. I’d like people to view me as an individual human, not one representative of something else like all redheads or all farm people, all people who grew up on farms or all people who are from Columbus, Ohio, or all of anything else. I am only me and I’m one person. and we want to be considered and informed and so when I when I when I get too speedy, too caught up in

some of the you know not optimal ways of looking at things. I start to think about like I am over here and then we’re serving others and

Haley Boehning (50:19)
Them.

Zoe Switzer (50:20)
them and that doesn’t exist. They the the company is a conglomeration of human beings and I am an employee and I am a person and I want some version of the same thing as every other employee. And so there’s something about

people in human resources where we can start to become, you know, just sort of used to attending to other people, which we should. That’s what we’re paid to do. But when that turns into forgetting the unity and the commonalities that really do eclipse even all the differences, I think I think it just gets in our way. So that would be one piece of advice. And the other one is I do like to remind myself what a privilege it is to be an employer. And that being an employer

means you have an opportunity to make whole lives better, not just the employment side, but every single thing. And so us striving to give people an employment op an employment experience that cultivates like the causes and conditions for both their well-being and the company’s productivity and that those can be an and and not an or is pretty fun.

Haley Boehning (51:31)
Amazing. Well, so thank you so much for being with us today

Zoe Switzer (51:34)
Thank you so much.

Haley Boehning (51:35)
and telling us the story of people at Jeni’s and giving us some things to really think about. from from your lips to the ears of

Zoe Switzer (51:41)
Thank you for the opportunity.

Haley Boehning (51:44)
all of the heads of people in the retail industry. And if that works, we’ll we’ll change. Thank you. Thank you.

Zoe Switzer (51:49)
Thanks, Haley. Appreciate the opportunity. See ya.