The Importance of Retail in Urban Development

Transcript by Descript:

That’s an important part of downtown, um, living that people want to be able to, um,  do their, their errands and their, um, you know, the needs that they have to be fulfilled, whether that’s personal fitness or gift buying or clothing, you know, you want to be able to do that in your neighborhood.  Retail Unwrapped is a weekly podcast hosted by Shelley Kohan from The Robin Report.

Each episode dives into the latest trends and developments in the retail industry. Join them as they discuss interesting topics and interview industry leaders, keeping you in the loop with everything retail.

Hi, everybody, and thanks for joining our weekly podcast. I’m Shelley Kohan, and I’m very, very excited to welcome Jennifer Peterson, Community Engagement Chief for Edwards Companies and Brian Bernstein, who’s the principal at REALM Collaborative. So for those of you that don’t know, Edwards Company is a privately held and nationally recognized family-owned corporation in Columbus, Ohio.

And they have several operating companies that are engaged in the businesses of mixed used urban development, multi family home buildings and management, student housing, building and management and land development and construction. So we’re going to hear more about that in a minute.

We’re also get an introduction into REALM Collaborative. Um, but Jen and Brian, I’m so excited to have you on Retail Unwrapped podcast, where our topic is the importance of re energizing local retail economies. And specifically, we’ll be talking about the downtown areas. So we’re going to dive into the importance of re energizing downtowns to the overall regional prosperity and also its impact on retail.

And we’ll provide examples of how. Both of you are really working to do that in Columbus, Ohio today. So let’s jump right in and welcome.  Thank you, Shelley.  Thanks for having us.  So Jen, maybe you can start by telling us a little bit about you yourself and the Edwards companies and kind of what you do.

Yeah, I’m happy to do that, Shelley. So I spent, um, Dash over 25 years in retail, uh, the majority of it at L Brands, uh, where I had increasing leadership positions over the years and marketing, merchandising, and actually ran one of the concepts, uh, for last, uh, CO Bigelow. Oh, one of my favorite brands. I love CO Bigelow.

Oh, me too. It was really almost like going back to college and, and learning, um, and learning retail, so it was fantastic. And then seven years, um, I ran Easton, uh, which is one of the top, uh, retail centers in the country and, um, had the great honor of doing that even through COVID, um, which was pretty crazy, but I started with the Edwards companies.

Last November. And as a community engagement chief, my role is to really, um, connect, convene, catalyze, um,  downtown in, in the retail arena, in the residential arena, and as well as with the businesses that make their home, um, downtown specifically in the gay and high area. So, um, I have a multi pronged job that I love and, um, just really helping to make Columbus be as great as it can possibly be.

So Jen, you’re a little modest, so I’m going to toot your horn, but you said that you were oversaw Easton. What I heard. Is that you are the rock star of Easton and you’re the reason why Easton is where it is today So you really just did a phenomenal job, uh in that area at that time So I will toot your horn because I know you won’t  Well, that’s very kind

I appreciate it. It was, um, obviously team effort and had an amazing team there. So, um,  yeah, it’s, um, it’s great to see Easton still thriving. I loved it before. I still love it. Um, but it’s really fun to work for a real estate developer who has such a keen vision, uh, for what downtown can be. I mean, Edwards is over 65 years, uh, in business and, you know, Jeff is the current CEO and president, but he really,  um,  quite strategically decided to focus on the downtown area about 15 years ago and has set out to, to continue to reimagine what can be, um, which is cool.

And when you talk about the vision, Brian, I think you recently have nominated Edwards companies for developer of the year. So, and that might’ve been for Jeff and the company, but tell us a little bit about why you have nominated them for this great award and also a little bit about what you do and your company does.

Yeah, great. Thanks so much. Um, so, uh, I’m a co founder of realm collaborative here in Columbus. We are a urban design and landscape architecture firm, um, really focused on urban spaces, uh, urban development campuses, uh, anything we say that connects people, you know, within public space, um, our real mission and goal is to, to, um, bring value to the, um, uh, implementation of public spaces throughout the country and in urban centers around the world.

And I mean, I’d say that, um, You know, for us, we see tremendous opportunity here, uh, in our Midwest market. Um, obviously we get to benefit from watching the coasts, uh, you know, the East and West coast and do the things that they’re doing and trying to, uh, uh, bring that same sense of energy to, to our cities, um, here in Columbus.

Um, you know, we had the opportunity to nominate Jeff for this award. I, um, Well, sort of preface the fact that the award was  measured by 12 months. So you had to have done whatever the significant gesture you had done in the last 12 months. This wasn’t a thing that you could sort of, you know, run off the resume, you know, what Jeff was able to do.

And of course, these projects were years in the making, but all sort of, um, you know, came, came together in a confluence here in the last 12 months of Uh, opening, you know, uh, 2 restaurants and we’re all Jen and I referring to an area of downtown called gay and high, uh, to 2 street intersection, sort of a, a quaint little area that had preserved a lot of its historic architecture over the years.

I’m very human-scaled, had a lot of great bones, um, and just needed another sort of injection of life. Um, Jeff has sort of taken on. Of several parcels to  redevelop and renovate, but he’s opened 2 restaurants recently, um, right across the street from each other. A 3rd, a year prior, but also hung an iconic  Janet Echelman sculpture over the street, which was, uh, sort of is his thesis to to make happen.

As well, as redevelop a part of an office tower here, that’s an adjacent block over. So  an office tower part of it converted to residential. There’s just a significant amount that is all sort of happen. And if you think about it in context to a post go good world. Downtown is struggling. There’s no doubt.

I mean, I think there’s, we’ve, I was recognizing today. I was, I had to find a spot in the parking garage, which is refreshing that like there’s that many people back that you had to fight for a spot.  Um, but really, you know, what, what he’s done and the company has done in the last, um, not only, you know, 12 months, but 15 years, uh, to, to really, um, inject this part of downtown with some energy is, is, uh, really, uh, to be celebrated.

Yeah, and it’s great. And I think the awards are coming out soon. So we’ll hear about, uh, the winners of the awards, right?  Yeah, that ceremony is the 10th of, um, September and, um, it has been pre screened that he is the developer of the year, but Edwards is also being, um, acknowledged in a couple of other categories for, um, historic preservation with the Madison and also best new restaurant with Hanks.

Um, so it’s an exciting, um, event. Moment  that is so exciting. Okay. So let’s talk a little bit about mixed use space, you know, and especially with the residential, uh, compliment to it. And this has been more and more important in the retail landscape, but Brian, you see it as urban real estate landscape, as opposed to what we traditionally kind of know as central business district, you know, so people want to live in these vibrant neighborhoods.

They want to live in an area that has soul. Tell us a little bit about why, why, about this whole philosophy and your view of how you look at things and why is it working? Has something changed in the mind of the consumer?  Um, well, you know, I, I think it’s, it’s fair to say that, um, one easy thing to pick on is in the post COVID area are, we’ve, we’ve changed our work habits, you know, and you can see this, uh, in town.

You know, Mondays are kind of busy. Tuesdays are really busy. And when you tag it to Friday, it’s not as busy downtown, right? So we, there’s clearly a flexibility going on and how people are working differently today. Um, and you know, in a knowledge based society, you know, central business district is functioning a little bit differently.

There’s no surprise. And I’m sure many people have heard about the doom loop, the forthcoming sort of all the real estate leases that are going to expire and we have office towers that are going to sit largely vacant. Um, there’s an opportunity within central business districts to, um, move them more in the direction of a mixed use development that offers more of a lifestyle approach to development in real estate than the former approach, which was really 1 dimensional in that sense of, you know, you have 100, 000 people coming into downtown every day and the 100, 000 leave every night.

And that’s just what it is. I think our. Part of the work we’ve done with with Jeff and Edwards company is really trying to look at a portion of the central business district, making that more of a mixed use neighborhood where people are living, dining, you know, lifestyle activities that are going on.

And again, it’s, it’s nothing revolutionary in its essence, but it is, it is a really difficult thing to move forward, particularly with some of these buildings that are quite challenging to convert to residential. Um, chef’s, uh, team there had worked on the, what is a PNC tower here in Columbus, which the upper half was converted to residential.

Um, you know, he did a, uh, restaurant development, the base of the building I’m going to get into the weeds here a little bit, but, you know, these are big buildings that don’t really offer a quality life streetscape that we love. I mean, anybody who’s gone to Uh, Easton per se, or, you know, other, other retail establishments.

There is a really well curated lifestyle for, um, the human scale and what you feel walking on the sidewalk. I think some of these older buildings really need a lot of that love. Um, and one of the things that they were doing was, uh, developing a restaurant and that nice little outhouse,  um, in a nice little building that came forward, the existing building

And really made the street have a nice human quality to it. So, um, that’s one of sort of the higher themes of what we’re looking at.  And, uh, Jen, you were talking about, you know, the intersection of gay and high streets. And so, tell us a little bit about that project. What was the inspiration and how did that whole project come about?

Yeah, I mean, I think Jeff has, um, Been a resident of Columbus his whole life. He’s committed to the city, this market, and, you know, feels a responsibility, I think, to, um, create a better place. Um,  when Columbus was in its heyday, you know, back in let’s call it the sixties, there were 50, 000 people living downtown, you know, it shrunk to under 10, 000 people.

We’re back up to about 16, 000 and with a goal of getting to 40, 000 by 2030, which is super ambitious and, um, it’s doable and, and what Jeff saw was, hey, there’s buildings that, um, have been offline or in distress for many years that could play a role in building up this residential, um,  Uh, market and, um, and the unit supply and so he, he really started that there, um, with the, um,  a reuse project and adaptive reuse with the citizens trust bank, um, and, and converted that building to not only residential, But there’s a bar inside, there’s a coffee shop on the ground floor.

There’s a wine store and there’s a beautiful, um, restaurant as well. And, um, just within that one space, you know, you see all this vibrancy and, and mixes of use, um, that people love. And, you know, it, it was sort of the beginning and then across the street where there had been a vacant lot, he built another building and that was, you know, that was new construction.

Across the street, he saw what was the former Madison’s department store that had been derelict since Well, 30 years at least, um, and had had some attempts, um, by other developers to, to get something going there and, and really he could help come in and, and be the catalyst and take it over the finish line.

So, um, that just opened, uh, as a residential building with 65 apartments, um, in May, and then we’ll have, um, retail uses on the ground floor coming, uh, towards the end of this year, um, in the form of, uh,  Um, and potentially a restaurant, um, in the back of that space. So, you know, he just has his vision to be able to see what’s possible.

You know, Brian mentioned the PNC tower, which is a Skidmore building built in the 70s, beautiful, if you like that style of architecture, but had, um, post COVID, very few people Businesses still residing there beyond PNC themselves. And there was a real opportunity to convert a portion of that building to residential, have this beautiful restaurant open, which brought one of the kind of famous, um, owners of restaurants in Columbus, Cameron Mitchell back downtown for the first time in 15 years, uh, with the butcher and Rose, and also.

Is allowing anyone who visits to see these beautiful gardens, which would have been, um, an ugly basement where actually the banks tellers, uh, you know, did their business is now this gorgeous garden. So he really is prescient in terms of being able to see the possibilities and then. Bring it to fruition.

I love the idea of how you have these reuse spaces, you have new construction, and then you have the historic preservation kind of all wrapped up in, you know, one big project. Tell us a little bit about how does the community participate in these types of projects?  Yeah, I mean, I think there is a, um, you know, sort of a village if you will, that it takes to get these projects done.

They’re really hard. They’re really hard. And especially, um, the historic preservation that comes with, you know, lots of care and concern for what was there and to, you know, You know, bring that properly into the current state, um, and adaptive reuse. I remember there was a situation with the residential  elevators because it had been a commercial building.

Residential elevators have to be able to hold a stretcher, an ambulance stretcher. Course, attack at work, there’s not the same concern, but, you know, those, those shafts had to be completely rebuilt. So it’s hard. And, you know, where you work with the city, where you work with the county, the state, even with the historic tax credits and team and things like that,  it’s, it’s really important.

But 1 of the really interesting things that’s been happening  within the last 12 months is an initiative with city council.  That a lot of collaborating on, but it’s called the downtown ground floor growth initiative and it’s really about bringing small businesses back downtown, focusing initially on minority and women owned businesses, but really kind of giving them a leg up, um, to help them get started.

And so developers and landlords are a key part of that equation. And it’s been really cool to see some of the new brands that are. In the build out stage right now of, um, their spaces as well as a couple that have opened. Um, so there’s just a lot of energy around bringing the retail landscape back to downtown.

You know, if it, if it hadn’t been decimated post COVID, um, it was already struggling before COVID. So, um, that’s an important part of downtown, um, living that people want to be able to, um,  Do their, their errands and their, um, you know, the needs that they have to be fulfilled, whether that’s personal fitness or gift buying or clothing, you know, you want to be able to do that in your neighborhood.

Definitely. And I know there’s Brian, you have a view about maintaining a community heritage. So  can you tell us a little bit about that?  Yeah, we, um, we had the opportunity and this was a. Really, Jeff was a catalyst to this because, uh, in the worst company was looking at how do we enliven public realm? I mean, as a developer, you can really only influence.

So much, you know, until you hit the public right away and then it becomes a much more complicated scenario. But I think, um, he serves as a board member on what is a local nonprofit development organization that is a sort of an extension of the city. Uh, and, and really used that opportunity as a way to think bigger about, um, how not only the gay and high area could become successful by re envisioning the street, but also starting to think about how we might be able to connect the Other investments we’ve made in downtown.

I mean, we’re a large, we’re a large land area downtown, and it’s very hard to can’t boil the ocean. Got to kind of have a strategy to start activating parts of downtown and start to draw together. So, we were fortunate to be part of the exercise with him to envision what we are now calling the capital line, which is very similar to Indianapolis cultural trail.

If you’ve ever seen that. You know, it’s a mobility loop, really well done with art and landscape that, you know, uh, in Indianapolis, I wanna say it’s over 18 miles at this point or something like that. Started maybe around six. Um, ours will be a two mile, at least initially concentrated loop around downtown that will touch,  you know, fairly significant areas that have seen investment in the last, you know, 15 years and really try to glue them together and start to give the areas in between some sort of backbone to build off of.

Um, so that, you know, as a local shop owners, others that are in that area, other developers will feel that there’s, this is a place I can start to invest in and then start to connect all these assets that we have, uh, you know, around the city.  So, um, wonderful opportunity, I think a huge catalyst that’s going to carry forward for the next 2 to another 10 to 15 years and changing the downtown landscape.

I love that. So is this, um, capital line, like walking biking?  Yes, the thought is, is very much. You know, we’ve, uh,  um, you know, in at least I’ll speak to Columbus, you know, we have a few streets downtown that have been well preserved and had a lot of opportunity gay street being 1 of them. Um, and, uh, this, this opportunity is just shifting the dial even a little bit further towards pedestrian.

It’s not a fully pedestrian street. It’s meant to be, you know, a shared street that has cars and trucks, but also, uh, pedestrians and bikes and, uh, that pedestrian bike loop will stretch, uh, those two miles around the city and really,  you know, create a more of immersive pedestrian scale environment.  That sounds wonderful.

And, you know, this whole consumer. Mindset of being outside I think is conducive to projects like this. It really kind of keeps them in the community outside but also in the you know vibrant part of a community, right  and there’s so much economic development that ends up being  catalyzed by these type of paths and trails um, you know, it’s um, certainly In New York dollars more significant with the high line, but every community that’s done this, whether it’s Atlanta’s belt line, the Indy culture trail that Brian referenced, they have all seen a significant benefit of economic catalyzation.

There’s a big ripple effect, right?  Exactly.  Yeah, I think, I mean, add this from a retail perspective, specifically, you know, this is. The suburbs have caught on, you know, others have built, you know, and Easton is an excellent example of, you know, curating an environment where it’s extremely walkable, um, you know, outdoor dining, you know, all the things that we love in a very concentrated fashion.

In downtowns, you know, they have to compete now, uh, and, you know, the, one of the reasons why it’s important to talk about Jeff and his vision here is because he was able to coalesce,  you know, a significant part of downtown into an area where you could come as a destination. I mean, they’re. For a while, there was no place you could actually get a drink before you went to any of the theaters around here.

Um, so, you know, just those types of things that bringing that vibrancy back, that the safety, the security, um, the walkability, all of those things are, are very acute things that, um, um, are part of the attraction retention of bringing people back.  Yeah. I mean, in the last 18 months with, you know, four restaurants now thriving, um, you know, where there was, you know, a couple of folks who have been trying to slog it out for the last 20 years.

It’s, it’s really almost become a dining destination. And yeah.  You know, where, where you see there’s density of people, density of options in terms of entertainment and food and beverage is a big part of the entertainment landscape.

Um, you know, you, you, you start to, something starts to catch fire.  Sounds really exciting. I’m glad to see the growth of Columbus, you know, downtown area coming back. One of the things that kind of struck me as both of you were speaking is that, you know, you’re talking about infrastructure, talking about city infrastructure.

And so there’s got to be some type of Balance, like should, shouldn’t the cities be helping to fund these activities? Should it only land on real estate companies and architects? Like who should be responsible for building out these, you know, very highly complex community projects? I think that’s a really excellent question.

I don’t, I don’t know that I could point the finger to say who holds the ultimate responsibility, but I think what is important. Jen said it earlier. It takes a village in some ways, you know, you need people with vision, the ability to take risk to show what’s possible, but then you need, I think, the city to back that and adopt, you know,  policies that support, you know, that type of risk taking, you know, in the event, in the advent of creating places that that people want to be and bringing life and vibrancy back to downtown.

So. Um, I think it’s a bit of both.  Yeah. I mean, when, when I moved here 30 years ago, um,  our downtown, you know, had some pockets of animation, but it, it really paled in comparison to where I came from, um, Chicago and to see at this time, the evolution is, is pretty spectacular, but I would say when Easton opened 25 years ago, I mean, it, it was better than downtown and, and that’s a problem.

Where you have, you know, the 15 largest city in the country and maybe a downtown that doesn’t reflect that, that level of not only population, but importance and, you know, we’ve had a couple of fairly forward thinking mayors who have, um, you know, taken us Bar, I think there was a lot happening and COVID, you know, kind of caused a pause with that.

But to see the reenergizing of these efforts, um, you know, the example about the sculpture that, um, Brian mentioned, Current, uh, by Janet Uckleman, whose world renowned and is, Um, made sculptures for, you know, some of the most prominent cities in the world. Um, she had not worked in Ohio. Um, she was very curious about Columbus, you know, sitting on a river, um, having this heritage of, um, You know, we started trolleys here.

We had lit up arches all the way down high street that, you know, we’re sort of a marvel of engineering as well as electricity. And, um, she was excited to, like, come here and be part of this. And the, the way the sculpture is hung over a city street, it’s adhered to 4 privately owned buildings. She’d never even contemplated doing something like that, you know, so to see, you know, Jeff being the visionary and the catalyzer, but also the city really coming in the other building owners saying, we want to be part of this to the county embracing it.

Even,  you know, it was pretty, pretty special and spectacular.  It now it’s like,  you know, one of the guideposts where, you know, where you are in the city. And when you see that lit up at night, it’s a pride point for certain, but also  just beautiful and something that is really there for everyone to enjoy.

So, you know, it, it, it does take a village, but it also takes an instigator. And I think Jeff is, you know, he’s, he’s a man of action. He’s a, he’s a great instigator in the, in the best way, um, to get things done.  Yeah. And I think you said he’s born and raised in Columbus, right? Yes, and he and his family recently moved downtown, um, where they had raised their kids in the suburbs.

Um, they are now living, um, right downtown. So he’s puts his money where his mouth is and is a great example, I think, to other leaders. Um, who believe in downtown.  I love that. So what should brands and retailers be thinking about in terms of these types of projects and how does a project like this get started?

I mean, I think, you know, studying other markets, um, that are, are doing innovative things, um, You know, I, I think Jeff has studied Detroit, you know, which is, is having an amazing renaissance having gone to college near there. Detroit was not having a renaissance, um, in the 80s and, uh, to see with private partner, private and public partnerships, how far they have come the beautiful shinola hotel downtown.

They have a Gucci on Woodward Avenue, like it’s really happening. And, um, you know, I think.  We are seeing an influx of people, not only moving here, but traffic to downtown in terms of visitors. Um, you know, we’re still hoping to get more people back to work. But when you’re looking at, um, even year over year data, we’re seeing lots and lots of new folks coming, um, into this market, coming downtown, maybe for the first time in some cases.

So I think looking at those examples and what’s happening because there is this layering where, you know, all the boats start to rise. Um, and it, it takes again, that concentration of density effort and, um, focus, um, to get that done.  I love that.

Jeff’s Jeff’s, uh, all boats rise. I love that.  It’s true.  Yes, it is true. And you know, I would, I would add it back to the theme before it’s really, uh,  I think to get the flywheel effect going, there’s a level of curation that has to happen. And I think again, back to why we thought Jeff was so worthy of the developer of the year award, you know, it’s just the amount of concentration, concentrated effort that happened and hit all at once.

And Jen mentioned this earlier. I mean, Now it’s a destination. It’s there. It’s not going to take five years to get there. You can go down there and have a drink at one restaurant, walk across the street, look at the sculpture, walk to a theater. I mean, and that, that takes a considerable amount of effort and investment and risk, uh, to make happen.

But I, I I think that’s what’s needed today. Again, we’re competing with a suburban, single owner, um, piece of real estate that they can pretty much control what they do. The hardest part about downtown is we have multiple landowners. Not everybody is a part of the vision. How do you get people a part of it?

So, downtowns, particularly in the retail sector, have a considerably, um, uh, more uphill battle, but when you have someone as benevolent and visionary as Jeff, um, You know, to sort of set a vision, glue it together, and then others can start to build into that, layer into that. I think that really gets things going and, uh, starts to make a destination out of it.

Well, this has been such an educational and, uh, really heartwarming story about, you know, bringing a town, you know, back to life. And, uh, any closing thoughts that either of you have?  Hmm.  There’s a saying, um, you know, uh, if, if, if you can get somebody to Columbus, you will win them over. And I think it’s really true.

It happened to me. And, um, yeah, come check us out. We’d be happy to talk to you, meet with you, share our secret sauce, our ideas, how we’re, um, thinking about things and making them happen.  I think that’s great. I think a lot of our brands and retailers that are listening may actually take you up on that.  So thank you, Brian.

Thank you, Jen, for being here. Awesome conversation. And. Just for our listeners next week, we have the CEO of Herbert Mines. It’s a premier executive recruiting firm, and she’s Brenda Malloy, and she’s going to be talking about what’s happening with executive leadership in. Today’s retail landscape. So it should be an exciting conversation.

But thanks so much for listening. If you have any ideas, suggestions, or comments, you can go to the robinreport.com and fill out the contact us. Thanks so much.  Thank you for listening to Retail Unwrapped. We’ll be back in one week with another podcast. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast service.

If you have questions, ideas for a podcast, or anything else, please contact us. Via the robinreport.com