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The myth is whenever people hear diversity, the myth comes in that it only means gender or race.  And it, it, it, that’s a myth. It means all of those things. It means different, right? It means, it means variety.

Retail Unwrapped is a weekly podcast hosted by Shelley Kohan from The Robin Report. Each episode dives into the latest trends and developments in the retail industry. Join them as they discuss interesting topics and interview industry leaders, keeping you in the loop with everything retail.  Hi, everybody, and thanks for joining our weekly podcast.

I’m Shelley Kohan. I’m very excited to welcome Kimberly Minor, who has had over, this will be a shocker, 30 years of dynamic leadership, experiencing. Both in spanning retail, brand management, e commerce. She is currently the CEO of Women of Color Retail Alliance, and she also serves on the faculty of Fisher School of Business at The Ohio State University and Michigan Technological University.

Because she doesn’t have enough to do. She’s also sits on the boards for Blue Conic, which is a MarTech company. And I’m really interested to hear about the MarTech company, because that’s the newest hot phrase in our industry, MarTech. Yeah, it’s very crowded. Yeah.  But here’s what I love most about Kimberly.

She is passionate about empowering women. And you actually recently been on a TED Talk. And because you won’t toot your own horn, I’m going to toot it for you, but you’re one of WWD’s esteemed list of 50 women in power.  So I am thrilled to have you on Retail Unwrapped Podcast. And today we have a very important topic, which is DEI woke.

So let’s jump right in. And first welcome. Thank you. Thank you, Shelley. Thank you for having me. This is a very important conversation.  Absolutely. So I, before we even jump into the nitty gritty of our conversation, I do think we have to define the word woke because, it has a lot of controversial meanings and I actually feel like a lot of people that use it don’t even understand the meaning of it at all.

So let’s start there. Yeah, I mean, the, the fundamental, the fundamental meaning of woke, it was a way of saying, be aware, right? Be informed, ask questions, understand what’s going on around you, understand your history, right? How did we get here? Just questions, right?  Be curious is really what it means. Be curious.

And then, you know, it has evolved into, you know, colloquialism of, it doesn’t mean it’s not political.  It doesn’t mean specifically racial. It doesn’t mean gender. It doesn’t, it’s not judgmental.  It really is politics. Thanks.  Be woke, be curious, be aware, do your research, understand, right?  Why is that bad?

It’s, it’s fascinating to me that people use it so despairing, you know, despairingly.  the I was Sunday. I think it was Sunday on the CBS on CBS this morning where, they were doing interviews at the Wisconsin State Fair, and,  they asked several people.  what they thought of the word woke, and they, they all said they didn’t like it.

And so I said, well, can you tell us why? What does it mean? What does woke mean? And some people say they didn’t know, but they knew based on what they heard, you know, on the internet. a certain station and certain publications that it was bad. It was a way of people making other people feel bad and they didn’t want that.

They don’t want anybody to feel bad. Some people said, oh, well, you know, you’re judging me because, you know, it is a way of judging. Some people said, I just don’t know, but it just sounds bad. And so when you, if you can’t, if you don’t know what it is, don’t judge it. Woke is for you, right? Because whatever you don’t know, you should want to know more about it.

Right. And so do a little research. Don’t just take someone’s word for it. It’s not a bad word. It really means be aware.  Be curious. I love it. I love the big curious too. That’s an important skill set that. A lot of our industry needs, especially today. So let’s jump into our first topic and maybe you can help us by defining what is meant by DEI and also can you help dispel any myths?

So, DEI, again, another term that has been weaponized.  it really is this simple D Is diversity and diversity means difference.  Difference. It, it, it can be gender. It could be how you, you know, how you identify it could be racial. It could be able. It can be, the language you speak, it can be where, the neighborhood you grew up in, it could be the type of clothes you wear, it could be where you went to school, it could be that you didn’t go to school, it could be what car you wear, like car you drive, it means different.

That’s it.  Diversity means different. Then there’s a bit. Well, and the way that, I kind of explained diversity in the same kind of way you did is it’s how we categorize people. It’s a categorization. It’s categorized, categorized. Well, I can’t say the word today, but yes, that’s exactly what it is. And, and the myth, the myth is whenever people hear diversity, the myth comes in that it only means gender or race.

And it, it, it, that’s a myth. It means all of those things. It means Different, right? It means, it means variety.  I like to say that diversity is a given. There’s nothing you can do about diversity. It exists. Love that. You’re very diverse in so many different ways. You know, we have, we don’t have that much time to explore.

You know, I teach at  OSU and one of the classes I teach is in the Masters of HR program. And it’s about, yeah, it’s  about,  leveraging. Diversity, right? And it’s not a bad word. And we, we did,  an assignment, you know, activity in class. And I asked the  students, it’s a 40 person class. I’m just going to keep writing.

You tell me how people can be different. And the whole board was covered. And I think there were like 60 different ways people can be different.  Right. Which dispels a myth that it’s only about race and gender. And so as, as you know, as we continue to be teachers, it’s important that we teach, you know, I think what’s appropriate for people to understand, take the politics out, take the fear out.

And it’s just difference. And we’re all different. So that’s diversity.  I’m going to go to inclusion  just because equity is a heavy word. And it’s, it’s tough for a lot of people to understand, to be honest, that’s probably the most difficult misunderstood of the three. Yes, yes. So inclusion, inclusion is that, right?

It’s fair treatment. It’s making sure that everyone feels like they’re a part or that they have access, right? So if everyone has access, you might get access in a different way. We’ll talk about that with equity. But as long as you have access and you’re treated in a Like everyone else and, it’s a welcoming environment and because of your difference, you are not set aside or omitted or not allowed to be a part of that is inclusion that is included.

So it fosters innovation, really, because if you,  if you’re in an environment and every time you open your mouth, you know, people either are ignoring you or are,  You know, discounting what you say or don’t let you speak. How can you be an effective member of the team? So then what happens is you, you’ve internalized that very quickly, right?

Those, that treatment, maybe there were microaggressions associated with it. And so,  If you feel that way, there’s no way you can show up with your full self because you’re spending more time thinking about that than what you’re brought there. So then you get judged on the work that you’re doing as opposed to the work you could be doing if it was a welcoming, open environment.

And then you could work with your teammates and you can have innovation. I do this in my class. I do a lot of teamwork in my class and I have all the teams. Each team has to do a team charter  and they have to talk about how they’re going to work together. What are their values? Oh yeah, love that.

Establish that. That way it takes all of the other stuff out of the way and holds people accountable. But it also makes you a real team because you understand what is important to each person so you can work together. And, and the students are like, Never thought about this. This is so cool because then it creates a level playing field, right?

Right. Which, which leads us to wait before you get to the next one. I just want to like say one thing about inclusion because inclusion, one thing about inclusion, it’s very difficult to measure. And the reason it’s difficult to measure it’s because how people feel. So it’s how employees feel and it’s how customers feel.

Are they feel, like you can write all the programs you want about inclusion, but if people don’t feel their voice being heard or don’t feel included, that’s the real measurement of inclusion, right? It is. But you know,  what you, how it will manifest is that. You will see people  move away, right? You’ll see how other people respond to those people because they see how they’re being treated.

So generally they start to like not include them, right? So it kind of, it manifests itself. So if that, if you are in an environment, you need to look out for that.  on the flip side, you say customers, right? If customers aren’t treated like they want to, and I don’t think people, I don’t think we do it as much as we probably should, but if you go into a retail establishment and someone treats you poorly, I mean, how often recently we heard, I mean, Oprah went into a store in Paris and was treated poorly.

She’s not going back to that store. You know, they, they, you know, they, they apologize. Like that was a, that’s like a, you know, pretty woman moment, like big mistake.

I should be treated like everyone else, but that’s, that’s going to happen more and more because, and I know we’ll talk about this, but as the generations change  and what’s important to them, their values change, they’re going to do more conscious. Consumerism  then is happening now and that’s why it’s important to understand,  these, these things, you know, it’s, it’s really important to understand and to understand the impact that they’ll have and, and maybe they don’t have enough right now, but they will, they will.

So let’s tackle equity. Yes. So  equity is, it’s also fair treatment, right? It, but it’s giving you what you need to provide that fair treatment. So here’s an example that I like to give. Just to break down,  we’re working late. Everyone in the, in the department is working late. You’re going to miss dinner.

The boss says, you know what? I’m going to order pizza for everybody. And, so you don’t have to be hungry. We can keep working. Everybody will have pizza and we’ll have water and we’ll have soda.  And they order  cheese, pizza, pepperoni pizza.  Two of the people have dairy allergies  and one is allergic to, so they can’t eat. 

There’s nothing for them to eat. But what do you mean? I got the same thing for everyone. I got pizza for everyone.  Okay. Now, imagine  you are, you know, you’re in a work environment and you say, okay, we’re going to have, we’re going to have training and it’s going to be on the computer and everybody’s going to have this training that’s going to give you the fundamentals for retail math I’m making up.

Well, someone needs accessibility on their computer that they don’t have.  And so  what they see, maybe they’re dyslexic, whatever. What they see is not what everyone else sees, but you’ve given them training. So now they’re at a disadvantage because you’ve given them training. You’ve given them pizza.

They can’t eat. They can’t take the, training.  It just sets them back and sets them back. That is the difference between equal  and equitable. And so that’s why equity is so important. Now,  why, why  is it so controversial, right? No, we don’t want equity. We want equal.  I believe the myth  is that  everyone should be treated the same.

That’s fine. You can treat people the same. You just need to give them the resources that makes it an even playing field. That’s all. That’s all right. And if you think about it like that, like how hard is it to ask the programmer for that training program to provide an accessible option? How difficult is it to say, Hey, everybody, I’m ordering pizza.

Are there any allergies I need to know about?  It’s so easy. It’s, it’s, it really is not hard. It becomes hard when you add on the myth, you add on the political, political, you know, whatever that is, you add on fear, because we hear so often  that people are against diversity, equity, inclusion, because they believe that.

It replaces them. I have seen it in writing. I have heard people say that these practices, you know, best people, the best people aren’t considered the, the, you know, which a, let’s talk about that. So the best people aren’t considered, how is that possible? If everyone isn’t considered, how do you know the best people are considered, right?

So you are thinking that certain groups are Should not be a part of it because that’s where the terms DEI hire come into play. That’s, I don’t even know what that is. Like, what is a DEI hire? People aren’t doing that. Why, why would you jeopardize your business to hire somebody who isn’t qualified? And by the way, there are people who aren’t qualified.

Diverse.  Every group has people who are qualified and every group has people who aren’t qualified. So to make statements is really quite ridiculous. And then to be afraid that with DEI that means someone else isn’t going to get the job.  DEI creates opportunity for more people.  to be considered, to be a part of it, and if one person doesn’t get it because someone else who is equally or more qualified, because they might have, you know, for whatever reason, as long as it’s, you know, a playing field where, yes, we’re all diverse, but we’re all being considered because we’re all qualified.

That’s great. And you can be qualified and then get into the environment and you need access. You need equitable access. That’s right. Yeah. So let me ask you a question. I’ve heard you say, you know, it isn’t a zero sum game. What do you, what do you mean by that?  Well, it’s, it’s, it’s what I said. So it’s not a zero sum game.

It’s not like, okay, if, if, if I bring, if there’s a man.  Working in this position and I want to  create a more diverse team.  It’s not that the man has to go away for me to bring in a woman.  Right.  It’s not pie.  And in most cases, you know, if you eat a piece of pie.  That pie doesn’t come back. You have to bake another pie.

This is not pie. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s work. It’s corporate America. It’s, you know, it’s, it’s, it’s not one for one. It’s just not, it just isn’t. If, if there are opportunities across the company and there are broad talent pools for all of them, then you get the choice. Of the best of the best. That’s right. You have to consider the best of the best.

And when you are saying, well, I don’t even want to consider anyone who I would consider a DEI hire again. I’m not sure what that is.  then you’re saying  it to me, this is what you’re saying. You’re saying I like the status quo because I’m afraid of that. Right. What are you afraid of? You’re afraid because you in deep inside, you know, that  By excluding them, those are biases and prejudices that have existed for a long time that have not been proven.

Maybe you have one bad experience with someone, maybe not, but you haven’t proven that a whole group, like whole groups of other people aren’t qualified for their job. and so that’s what I mean when I say it’s not a zero sum game. It’s not one for one. That’s just not, that’s just not true.  I like that.

And, also we know that we have the data, we have the facts to back it up, but we know that a more diverse group is a more productive, puts out a richer output. That’s right. So that’s right. We all know that. So everyone should be going towards that. So I want to go back to something you said about,  the new general market.

It’s one of my passion topics. And so historically in the U S there’s been two market segments. There’s been the general market and then there’s the multicultural market. The general market really represents non Hispanic whites. So whites have always been the general market and the multicultural market includes black, Hispanic, Asian, and other racial groups.

And here’s the thing, the white population in the US is decreasing while Hispanic, Black, Asian continues to grow. And by 2050, which is not that far away, the non Hispanic whites, so whites become the minority in the US market, which makes the multicultural market, The new general majority market. And one of my colleagues who I just adore, Imani Lanners from Zeta Global said in her podcast with me, Gen Z consumers will mark the final era where multicultural individuals are the minority.

So, we have that, and I just have to add one more thing I’m very passionate about.  Kimberly, Gen Alpha enters the workforce next year, okay? And I know it’s kind of shocking, right? Because they came, they were born in 2013, they started being born in 2013, right? Well, they’re turning, they’re turning 16 next year.

So they’re entering into the market.  And so they’re going to become the focal point over the next five to 10 years as their buying power continues to increase. So culturally, you know, the workplace, Gen Alpha expects diversity, equity, and inclusion. They are very aware of unconscious biases and they actually literally believe in fair treatment for all.

And I’ll add one more thing. And that is Gen Alpha is the most diverse multicultural generation ever.  So with all that said, I’m going to ask you, how should brands be thinking about their customers, their shoppers, and employees?  A, they should be thinking about them. And I think there are brands that still haven’t  connected with their, you know,  who their customer is or will be.

And I, I believe that,  you know,  it’s a loaded question because what we see in,  leadership. In this industry last year, it was noted that every  so I  guess the year before it was a banner year, let’s say for women into CEO roles into leadership roles.  There are some pretty high profile movement, you know, Roz Brewer,  just several.

And then quickly  it was back. There’s a lot of backpedaling and at a rate of five to one  women CEOs were replaced by male CEOs. And.  99 percent of those males were older white gentlemen.  And so,  at some point,  they’re going to age out.  But if the movement, because look,  Gen Z, I have a Gen Z er, he’s 22, he just graduated from college.

He’s the next leadership, right? That’s right. They believe very much like  Gen Alpha, right? That’s right. It’s a broad world.  People should love who they love. They should, you know, live where they want to live, do what they want to do, work hard and grow in their careers, right? And it doesn’t matter what you look like, what you do, it’s just not important.

It’s how you show up and what your contribution is. And you should be given the opportunity to make that contribution. And so what I think is,  I don’t know if there’s, I don’t,  I don’t believe if,  organizations don’t start to pay attention to that and they don’t have to call it DEI.

It should just be business practice. Right? Who is your customer? Who is your customer? And who’s your, you know, who’s, who’s bringing the most money to you? Right? Like, look at it. And if you see the trend,  then your marketing should support that, right?

Your internal practices should support that. It shouldn’t be a vertical DEI wall and say, I’ve got the, no, I don’t believe in that. I don’t believe in that at all. I think that you should have inclusive and equitable practices across your business. You know, whether it’s customer facing or internal.

Because you’re gonna have to be ready. You can fight it, and you can fight it, and you can fight it, but at some point, you’re not going to be able to fight it because it’s here. So it goes back to what I said first with diversity. Diversity is a given. Right. And so you can, you can kind of hold off, but here’s, here’s the other thing, Shelley.

I don’t know if  the people right now who have most of the money, right. So it’s Gen X and,  boomers with millennials right there. Right. I don’t know.  I don’t feel like they are  as committed to conscious consumerism. I think there’s a lot of chatter and there was, there was a lot, you know, 20, 21, you know, probably up until last year, there was a lot of chatter, but if you were to look at the numbers, they wouldn’t really support that.

I think Gen Z.  They put their money where their mouth is, and every day they’re a new brand coming into the marketplace, and they don’t have a problem, you know, going on their phone on IG as they’re scrolling. Oh, I’m going to try that. I’m going to buy that. TikTok. I’m going to try that. I’m going to buy that.

And as long as there are options for them to spend their money somewhere else,  they will. And then these large companies, or not even large companies, but these companies that just don’t seem to care.  I think they’ll eventually start to feel it and maybe it will be at a point where either they have to make a change or  it’s too late, but I do believe that,  the shift is going to happen and either they need to be ready for it or not.

But the, but the first  data part point that you gave. About the non Hispanic white  demographic. I think that scares the out of them every day because the problem is always been  the fear of not having and the zero sum game and the fear of someone else having what you might have already had or someone taking something from you said, you know, another way.

And I think that with that fear, Yeah.  That fear is dangerous because people want to hold on to that power as long as possible,  not understanding that the power could just get bigger. Like if you opened it up, I don’t know what you would lose. I, you know, that’s, that’s my question all the time. Okay. But what, what are you going to lose by doing this?

Tell me what, explain. You know, so,  yeah, I think it’s going to be either you’re ready for it or you’re not, but it’s coming. It’s coming very quickly. And, and I, and I hope I talk to my students about this all the time about, you know, conscious consumerism. And, and I said, I, I, I am behind it 100%. It’s just,  we don’t do it.

We just don’t do it. I remember, It was 2019 and Gucci had put out the,  the Sambo sweater. It was a black  with the big red lips. And,  they had done a few offensive things. They had some.  Black face and they had done some things.  like H and M had a monkey sweatshirt and they put it on a little black boy.

And so I had led a discussion for the national urban league with Dapper Dan and Biffy Smith and  Kim Blackwell talking about brands. Responsibility. Right. That’s right. How does this happen? How does this happen? And, and, and Dapper Dan said at the time, like I said, that was five years ago, but he said, he was like, you know, Kimberly, the problem is this.

We have to just keep pushing and having these conversations and it’s going to upset people. But the problem is  most groups. Where we sit today, don’t have the buying power to be impactful enough for these organizations to really care, right? If we pulled back on what we were spending in, you know, let’s just say a Gucci,  people of color, that’s going to put a small dent, right?

But in these more mid market and mass market brands, it would make a, it would make a more significant difference.  And I believe there will be a big difference, you know, as we get every year, there’s going to be, they’re going to start to see the difference.  I want to ask you one last question. so I’ve, I’ve heard a lot of things out there with companies pulling back on DE& I initiatives, which to me, it goes back to what you said earlier.

It’s not really an initiative. It’s not really a program, but you know, what’s going on? Why are, why are some companies saying, well, that’s not my customer?  Yeah,  I, well,  Here’s what’s happening. So there are some, you know, activists and agitators out there who are,  you know, for some reason they have a platform that is revenue motivated and, they are threatening to, you know, get the board against the CEO or, you know, put,  make trouble for the stock price,  and, and, and push this agenda that.

It’s woke, which we talked about earlier, right? And, and,  If you did not,  institute practices across your business that were just embedded and, you know, that’s who you are as a value that you want to make sure that everyone has the same opportunity, then it was an initiative and it was performative and it’s very easy to say, I’m not doing that.

And, you know, I, I feel that. Brands who do that create opportunity for those new brands. I just talked about that’s right. Oh my gosh. You’re totally right Yeah, it just creates opportunity if you don’t want me to shop at your  you’re with your brand. Okay,  let’s see Can we get a group together over here and we can create our own, you know It’s really sad that we’d have to do that And I don’t know if our own is the right word, but maybe create a more inclusive brand That’s right variance so that we could show you what that looks like.

You know, let’s make it for everyone. What brand, you know,  brands are, they can do what they want, right? Because a brand is for whoever they say their target customer is. And if, if you have been in that, or you thought you were, and you are explicitly told, no, you’re not, we don’t want you here. Then I believe you use that as an opportunity to find the white space so that we can create something that is for everyone.

And, you know, no hard feelings.  Everybody’s not for everybody. But don’t give them your money.  I love your positivity. That’s great. I love how you think about it as creating more white space for companies and organizations that are more inclusive. Because I’m going to tell you right now, Gen Alpha, Gen Z, that’s what they’re looking for.

They’re looking for that. So Kimberly, thank you so much for being here. You are a wealth of information. Thanks for debunking a lot of those myths out there.  it’s great to have you on the podcast. Well, thank you, Shelley. I had a great time. Anytime you want me to come back. There’s so many things we could talk about.

Oh my God, you and I could talk forever. I’m sure. So just to get our listeners excited about next week, we have Rebekah Matheny from The Ohio State University, who did a lot of really impressive research and on circularity. So, she’s going to be talking about circularity, sustainability. So stay tuned for that.

And please provide any suggestions that you have about retail on RAP.  You can go to therobinreport.com and use the contact us feature. We’re always looking for feedback and suggestions. Thanks so much for listening.  Thank you for listening to Retail Unwrapped. We’ll be back in one week with another podcast.

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