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One of the unique things about this Walmart partnership is it has given us an opportunity as a brand, with the help of their volume and their time commitment to reframe that cost paradigm and offer products that are in reach for everyday Americans, which has been really gratifying to me and something I’m pretty proud of.

Retail Unwrapped is a weekly podcast hosted by Shelley Kohan from The Robin Report. Each episode dives into the latest trends and developments in the retail industry. Join them as they discuss interesting topics and interview industry leaders, keeping you in the loop with everything retail.  Hi everybody and thanks for joining our weekly podcast.

I’m Shelley Kohan. I’m thrilled to welcome back Bayard Winthrop, the founder and CEO of American Giant. So thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me, Shelley. It’s always great to be with you.  So last time you were on the podcast, you had some big, big news to share with us. And as we start the new year, you have even more big news to share with us.

So let’s first get our listeners caught up on American Giant. So last year in July, for 4th of July, American giant announced a big, big collaboration with Walmart, which was a hundred percent American made t shirt. And just so you know, I literally bought mine the day they launched in stores.  As you know, Byron, I am a big fan of American giant.

I’m wearing my. Favorite hoodie ever right now on our podcast. But I have to say that I was the t shirt really lived up to the expectation. So really quality and great value. So I have to first ask you, how did that collaboration go? Looking back, did you get the sales you expected? And even more importantly for me and maybe to you is providing greater access to us consumers, to the American giant brand with a Walmart collaboration. Yeah. Well, there’s a, there’s a lot in that question.

And so I’ll try to break it down and it’s parts. I think the first part is, is it’s great to hear you saying that it met its expectations with you. We couldn’t be prouder about that t shirt. It is, as you said, it’s a hundred percent cotton, entirely American made t shirt that’s retailing for 12.98 in Walmart stores. That program is available year round there. And I think we’re in 1700 doors with Walmart. And so you know, it’s, it’s an interesting thing because that t shirt is it’s got that kind of gutsy American quality to it. It’s sort of the way that I think about it. And I, I love that shirt.

I’m wearing one of them now, actually, it’s my, it has become my go shirt in all of its colors. That I, I really I’m proud of and, and I think it’s a, that, that intersection of quality and value is where Walmart, I think really tries to live and they’re good at it. They’re good at, at working with their suppliers to, to kind of ring the best possible output out of them that they can.

The way that the partnership came about it was, it, it started with a, with a podcast I was doing actually with a guy named Mike Rowe, who you may know from dirty  Mike’s become a friend over the years. We share a lot of common causes around the value of the trades and the value of manufacturing jobs.

And he had me on the podcast to talk about that. And in, in my discussions there, I’d mentioned the fact that we too much live in a time now where If we disagree on one thing, it means we’d have to disagree on everything. And I made the point that Walmart, it’s a, it’s a company, a brand of which many in many areas I, I, I could or do disagree with.

And yet they’ve been a real leader in their commitment to American made. They, they have made a huge commitment that very few people know about a 350  billion with a B billion dollars to purchase in the coming decade American made grown or assembled products. They’ve expanded that commitment.

Now, I think it’s up to now 450 billion. I may not be right about that, but it’s directionally right.  And I just said that we should celebrate that, you know, that, that Walmart tends to be modest in that regard. And I I’m unaware of any other brand or retailer that’s making that kind of commitment. And I, I’m a, I’m, I’m a supporter of that.

And I think it’s really great. They’re doing it. And they heard that interview and they reached out and said Appreciate you supporting us, but more importantly we’re trying to figure out textiles. And would you come in and tell us what your experience has been? And, and that conversation led over time to really a discussion around how fragmented the American textile supply chain has become over the years.

And I think that’s true in large part by a lot of basic manufacturing, the United States is that our trade policies have kind of decimated a lot of. Or manufacturing centers, whether that’s in rural communities or urban centers, and they become quite fragmented and, and Walmart said, I’m, I’m simplifying this whole conversation, but they said, well, how do you fix it?

I said, you fix it with a time commitment and a volume commitment and to their during credit. They said, well, we can do both of those things. And that kicked off the conversation that led to the T shirts that launched, as you said, this last 4th of July.  And to the question about how it’s going I, I know that, as great as their commitment has been I’ve always been mindful that at the end of the day, if customers don’t appreciate the value that we’re offering there that commitment is going to be finite. So we launched very strongly. We beat, I think all expectations at the launch. And I think the program has been going very, very well.

And I think maybe the indication of that is Walmart’s desire to expand the program which is just great. And I think that’s, you know, we, we, we need. People in the mix trying to figure out ways to revitalize and reinvest in US manufacturing and they’re being a phenomenal partner in that regard.

And so exciting to see that it’s going well and exciting to see that it has potential of expansion. So that’s the, that’s how I’d answer that question. Sorry for the long winded version of it. No, no, it’s great. It gives a lot of perspective. So tell us about the expansion. Like what are you doing next?

Well, so as you mentioned, the, the, the the made in America program launched in t shirts, four colors. And we are now announcing that we are rolling out a sweatshirt program early in the new year with Walmart. And it’s yeah, it’s really exciting as, as your listeners may not know, American giant really our, our foundation is an American made knitwear t shirts and sweatshirts.

We really became I think known for the sweatshirt that you’re wearing, which which got called the greatest hoodie ever made by a reporter named Farhad Manju. And our expertise, our depth, our knowledge is in, is in sweatshirts. And we’ve been doing it for, you know, over a decade and have kind of deep partnerships with some of the great knitwear manufacturers in North America.

Could be proud of those people and that’s where expertise is. And so to be able to give a, an effort with Walmart and that behalf just is fantastic. And to be able to bring some of that capability to the, to the, the power and the breadth that they represent is pretty awesome. And if I may, I’ll just sort of, I’d love to just add one thing about that, that, you know, one of the ironies over the years is as we’ve changed our, our trade posture and policies with countries.

What’s happened when I was a kid you could get phenomenal American made sweatshirts, blue jeans, t shirts, and those products which were made well, they were the highest quality, lasted for a very long time kind of became the envy of the world in many ways that if you wanted to buy a great pair of blue jeans or a great sweatshirt, you bought it from an American brand made in America.

We’ve lost sight of that totally. And today you can’t, if you’re a, if you’re a. Blue collar, working class American, your ability to buy American made products is really difficult and priced very high. That applied to American Giant too. Our, our core line is a high quality premium line. And our t shirts retail from 35 bucks and up and our sweatshirts retail for 80 and up.

And those are pricing structures that are out of reach for many Americans, particularly the Americans that we’re, we, you know, in many ways we care the most about, the people that are in the factories and in the trades jobs.  And one of the unique things about this Walmart partnership is it has given us an opportunity as a brand with the help of their volume and their time commitment to reframe that cost paradigm and offer products that are in reach for everyday Americans, which has been really gratifying to me and something I’m  pretty proud of.

That’s great. And you may not know this, but Denise Incandela was recently recognized as a Robin Report Crave Retail Radical. And as you know, our listeners may not, I’m sure everyone knows she’s the EVP of Walmart Fashion. And she said, she was on my podcast and she said something I think you’re really going to relate to.

She talked about the democratization of fashion and really this idea of providing Americans specifically access to fashion at a value price. And value is not just about price, it’s about quality and price. So when we talked about the t shirt last year and the hoodie which is launching this year. It’s, by the way, so exciting.

We discussed, you know, how, how can American Giant get the quality of a, that you have for your brand made in the USA at a price that the Walmart consumers is willing to pay. So, you know, I got the t shirt. I definitely an in route to get the hoodie. And the other thing that she said, which I think directly relates to you is Denise talked about how Walmart fashion is now seen as quote unquote cool. So when I think about your expanded partnership and the way I think about American Giant, your brand is super, super cool. So this whole expanded partnership is a testament to scale, volume, resources needed to make a high quality made in the USA garments available.

At an accessible price. So I know I threw a lot at you right there, but it’s great. And if you had the, the opportunity to chat with Denise, you I’m sure got a sense about what a force of nature she is. She’s, she is a, she’s a remarkable woman. She’s doing amazing things at Walmart. And I think they do kind of pivot around this point of the democratization of fashion and, and I’d put American made in there too.

I think. You know, we have in my mind, we have too often allowed ourselves to think that American made or high fashion is the readout of premium boutiques and runways. And I think that’s true, right? I think in many cases you want to have your, your fashion there, but, but I also think there’s a role for it for all of us.

And I think Walmart is solving for that in a really interesting way. The closest home for us is this concept of American made at a value that the average American have can have access to, you know, that is. It’s related, I think, to the national conversation we’re having now about about trade and renegotiation, but Walmart isn’t waiting around for that to  come down the ladder from D.C. They’re they’re leading now, and they’re doing it, I think, from a place of exactly as you’re pointing out, trying to reframe the entire discussion for their customers like. This is nonsense. We’re not going to accept the fact that you can’t bring great fresh fashion, great quality American made products to our customers.

And Denise has been a tip of the spear of that effort. And she’s amazing. And I think that, you know, from our perspective, I love that part about the customer piece of it. It also has profound impacts on the supply chain. And it really does change the way that our supply chain partners think about doing that and thinking about, boy, I’ve now got a partnership here.

That’s going to last. That’s not going to Flip overseas for a nickel, but it’s going to be here for a long period of time at a consistent volumes that I can invest behind and grow my confidence around. So she’s awesome. And it’s, it’s totally agree with the way she’s thinking about it. Our, our more narrower view is the democratization of American made.

And I love that concept and yeah, they’ve been great to work with on it.  So let’s talk about something. So the new tariffs coming in, new administrations coming in, and I have to tell you that the top concern for CEOs and CFOs coming into 2025 is these looming tariffs. And quite frankly, if the tariffs that have been put out there actually do go in place, it impacts the consumer buying power, reduces it.

According to the NRF, that buying power Could cost Americans  78 billion in annual spending, which is a lot. That means that we’re going to have a very competitive marketplace. And you know this better than I do. You might want to change this statistic, but apparel categories, specifically 80 percent of the clothing that’s sold in the U.S. is being imported. So we all know that tariffs. are a tax that ultimately comes from the consumer’s pocket through higher prices. So I’d love to hear your view on the tariffs and everything. I think there’s also going to be a lot of retailers that are actually going to study American Giant and really try to figure out how they can profitably make garments in the USA.

Great question. So let me kind of work my way through that. I think you said 80 percent of the clothing is made is, is imported. I think the number is actually quite, quite, quite a bit higher than that. I’ve, I’ve heard 95%.  Yeah. So I think it’s, it’s, it’s effectively almost entirely imported. And I think this is a very big concern for many CEOs and  CFOs and rightly so.

You know, I think Tariffs are going to be very, very disruptive. Obviously. I think what I’d like, the way I’d like to ask the question, maybe you start big and then get smaller with it. If you pull the lens way back, as I said earlier, in 1980 we had call it those, those statistics were flipped.

I’ll talk about just about textile specifically here and about 95 percent of the clothing bought by Americans was made in America.  And.  It worked then.  And so I think we have to wrestle at the highest level. This is not some theoretical discussion. We have examples of in the past when we’ve been making more basic goods within the United States, there was a time then where.

We had a economy and a manufacturing base where we were in many cases, the envy of the world  today. And 40 years later we’ve given up a lot of that manufacturing capability. We’ve given it in large part over to an adversary on the world stage. I think there’s no question now, I think in the beginning of those trade ideas, part of that calculus was that China threw in more open and free training relationship and full embrace in the WTO was going to become a first world order partner to the United States.

That has been a colossally bad bet that China today is a much more intractable foe to the United States than they were then. And they are much more capable and much richer than they were then. And it’s come in large part, I would argue, the expense of the United States. So the question is, is do we care about reshoring some of those jobs.

Is it important from a national security standpoint? I’d argue very strongly that it is. And as you may know, we got wrapped up into the, into the the medical mask disaster during pandemic. And we’re trying to get FEMA and the CDC masks when we couldn’t get doctor’s masks. And it’s a, it’s a good. Specific example of the importance of a, of a healthy, robust industrial base in the United States, when we’ve got international crises or or events like pandemics that we have to be able to respond to and do not have the manufacturing base to do that, that should concern all Americans.

That’s sort of one point. The second point is we, we 40 years ago, we’re in a time and a place where us manufacturing was alive and well, middle class jobs were robust. We were the envy of the world of manufacturing today, middle class wages 40 years later have stagnated. They basically have not moved and we’ve shifted over manufacturing capability overseas in large part to China.

I would argue to the detriment of the United States and I would argue further that we pay for that in ways that are harder to see, but we pay for that. We pay for that in communities, rural and urban that don’t have good dignified work. We pay for it in the sense the reality today is when I was a kid.

In 1980, one member of the household could go off, get a 40 or 50 hour a week job at a factory work with a team there, make enough money that the other parent could stay home and raise the family. Today, that same family, by and large, is having to be a two working household. They’re taking shift work and they’re working at places like the dollar store or Carl’s Jr. where they can only get. Less than 27 hours a week because those brands are trying to avoid additional costs that come along with more employment. That means that children less often have both parents at home and that work is less durable. I think that should concern all of us. And I would argue that we pay for those things in ways that are harder to see.

So to your point that we all know that tariffs are a tax on consumers, I would challenge that framing a little bit. I think they’re easy to see, In that way, it’s true that a t shirt might get more expensive, but the benefits that accrue to all of us as Americans, financially and otherwise, I think are offset by that increase.

Now, final thought, I won’t, I’ll try to keep it short.  I think my personal hope is that the incoming administration does not yank the wheel on tariffs because it took us 40 years to get into this spot and we’re not going to get out of it in a month. And so I, and I, I believe that it will be this way.

I think the administration will be methodical but I think they are going to use tariffs as a way to rebalance this discussion. And I can just tell you as someone that’s in the trenches and textiles, our trade relationships with our international competitors are terrible. And if you could look within them and you had the ability to actually dig into the thousands and thousands of pages of that, what you would, you would find yourself asking what in the world are lawmakers in D.C. are doing. They’re certainly not looking out for average Americans that want to get a good paying job. And so I think it’s long overdue is my opinion. I’m hopeful that we’re going to do it methodically. We’ll see. But by and large, I think it’s a as I said to you, maybe before we got on air, I’m, I’m, I’m optimistic about the coming decade.

I think, I think the narrative is changing and I think it’s changing in a way that’s going to benefit middle class working Americans that we all should support and kind of return the opportunity for access to the American dream again for people that are just trying to. You know, get up each day and put in a good day’s work and raise kids well and give them a better life than they had for themselves.

I love your perspective. I mean, it’s just so  heartening to me that you just take such a deep dive and you really care about Americans. It’s not about a brand. It’s not about American giant. It’s really about doing something really good for the country. And so I appreciate that. And I also appreciate you sharing some of the details that, you know, many of us retail pundits included, we don’t have that level of detail.

So thank you for that.  Going into 2025, one of my retail trends is brand value. I think consumers are really all about this kind of unique value proposition. And I know Walmart for sure is keen, keenly focused on value, laser focus. As Denise said, you know, this relentless pursuit of offering value. So, you know, the collaboration you have with Walmart goes beyond just adding value because you’re making these products.

In the USA, it speaks volumes to what you just mentioned about. It’s more than just selling a great product. So we also know that you can make quality goods at value pricey. It can be done. You’ve shown us that, and I get it. Scale helps. I understand that. We talked a lot about scale helps with that model, but tell us a little bit about brand value and how can others do what you’re doing, making product in the USA at a price the customer’s willing to pay?

Yeah. Well.  That’s a great question. I mean, I think you’re right that I think that the box you operate within when Walmart that I really appreciate, by the way, is this relentless framing of of quality and value to our consumer. And obviously you can define quality and value throughout the economic.

Chain, right? I mean, there are people that will tell you that a 180 t shirt is worth it, right? If it’s worn by some influencer, let’s say, right? So value is different things, different people. Walmart’s obviously obsessed with value for their customers. So I think that that’s a very helpful paradigm to operate within because it tightens things up very, very quickly.

Part of the discussion with Walmart began with, boy, how could we It began for personally, just educationally, just talking to each other. What do you see? And what are we saying? What’s the problem here?  And then over time evolved into, well, could we do something together? And we looked at different options.

You know, one option was, could we white label product for you? Meaning could we use our knowledge and relationships in the supply chain to build white label product for you?  And as I sat with that over time, When I first started talking to Walmart, I was like, Oh boy, you know, my precious American giant brand, I’m going to put it in Walmart and we’re going to lose the luster of being in a, now being in this, in this main, this main retailer.

And then I began to think for a second about like, wait, wait a minute, what am I here for? I’m, I’m trying to bring back really good quality American made products to all consumers, not just consumers that are shopping in the boutiques of San Francisco, but to all consumers. And there’s an opportunity to do this.

And if I can’t meet that quality paradigm within the framework that Walmart’s providing, I shouldn’t have my brand on it. I shouldn’t do it.  But if I can, I should put my brand on that because I should be proud of living with that intersection of quality at that value. And the more I thought about it that way, that became really obvious.

Like, it always sort of bothered me that brands were in Walmart, but they kind of made it like a sub brand. They kind of did it. Well, it’s this brand, but Walmart. We’re going to name it differently because maybe the Walmart customer can’t afford the premium brand, or it’s going to tarnish our brand somehow.

And I just. You know, when I thought about our brand, you know, we are the men and women that are working in factories that are working in the trades are the people that are most impacted by the viability of U. S. Manufacturing and trades jobs and our trade policies. And those are the people that we celebrate that we admire that we’re in the fight for and.

Gosh, almighty, I better be able to have my brand offer them an option if I can do it. And so, so anyway, I think we ended up being full throatedly involved as you can tell by this interview where we’re, we’re very proud of the partnership. And so I think that was part of it that became part of the value paradigm.

Now I’ll say just in closing about that at the end of the day, We are going to win or lose with all of our shoppers, Walmart shoppers, and our premium shoppers and everyone in between based on quality and value. That’s what we’re going to, we’re going to, we’re going to win or lose. I hope that the American giant brand is part of that adds to that value proposition, but my suspicion is that we’re probably primarily going to make it on someone.

Grabbing that t shirt and saying, is this thing worth 12 bucks or not? And feeling like, boy, yeah, it is. It’s a hundred percent cotton. It’s heavyweight. It reminds me of the shirts I had when I was a kid. So I think at the end of the day, the brands may be part of that conversation, but at the core of it, I think is the actual product itself and whether we’re executing there.

I, I am so excited for you and I’m so excited for your brand. I know the merchandise at Walmart, the new stuff that’s coming out now is going to be a home run. And thank you for providing greater access to American made American giant brand. And thank you for being here today. Really appreciate it, Shelley.

Thank you for having me on and for talking about it. Early January, they’ll be in store. So fingers crossed.  Thank you. Thanks, Shelley.  Thank you for listening to Retail Unwrapped. We’ll be back in one week with another podcast. Please subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or any podcast service. If you have questions, ideas for a podcast, or anything else, please contact us via therobinreport.com.