Shelley E. Kohan (00:01.858)
Hi everybody and thanks for joining our weekly podcast. I’m Shelley Cohen and I am very excited to welcome Bob King, who is the founder and CEO of Human Scale. Welcome Bob.

Robert King (00:12.911)
Thanks, Shelley. It’s good to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:16.364)
I’m so excited to share your story because back 40 years ago, you saw a rise in workplace injuries due to the arrival of computers and you set out specifically to change the landscape of workplace well-being. So your company, Human Scale, is the pioneer of ergonomics in the office and now you’re the leader in ergonomics wherever work happens. In fact, some people refer to Human Scale as the apple of office furniture.

because you focus on innovative engineering and ease of use. So it’s great to have you here.

Robert King (00:51.971)
Yeah, thanks. It’s great to be here and I love talking about nothing better than ergonomics. So thanks.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:57.166)
I think it’s a really important time for the industry too. So we have hybrid work, which really has blown up since COVID. We have this focus on wellness. And now one of the big mandates out there is the return to office mandates, which quite frankly, I’m not so sure it’s gonna be a long-term sticking mechanism of mandating everyone return to five days a week. I don’t believe the mandates will work.

And for those employees who do return to the office full time, their workplace expectations have vastly changed since 2019.

Robert King (01:34.521)
Yeah, I know that’s a really important topic. More more companies are saying their folks have to come into the office. Initially, a lot of people thought it would be great if they just stayed home. They could save all these real estate costs and so on. But they realized that not having people together had a really negative impact on a lot of things, on creativity, on the ability of people to collaborate. Companies, what are companies, essentially? They’re just groups of

of people with interpersonal relationships and it’s hard to have those relationships when folks are remote. And so no, there’s been a big trend to get everybody back. I personally think it’ll continue. I think we’ll see more people coming back to the office than now. Right now, on average, people are back in the office about three days a week, depending, it varies on coast to coast and so on in industry. But I think that’ll improve. I don’t think we’ll ever.

back to a five-day work week though again. That’s, I don’t think that’s happening for better or for worse.

Shelley E. Kohan (02:39.182)
Well, you and I are agreement on that one. I agree. I don’t think that’s going to happen. So tell me a little bit about the demand for ergonomically correct chairs and office furniture. Has the demand risen?

Robert King (02:51.717)
The demand has risen for sure, but it’s risen in different places. If there are fewer people in the office on any given day, you need less stuff in the office. So the office market has actually taken a bit of a hit, but there’s more workstations, there’s more ergonomic chairs in the world today than there were pre-pandemic. It’s just that those workstations are in people’s homes.

And so the market has expanded, the expansion occurred in folks’ homes, which is interesting because during the pandemic, when people were all of a sudden at home, it was rather interesting in that we pioneered ergonomics in the office for whatever, 40 years now, right? And we’ve made great strides in the office. When computers first showed up in the office, it caused mayhem.

you put the computer in the corner of their desk as they were crt’s and and they would end up looking in into the writer to the left hundreds of times a day and and everyone had these neck problems and then they had back issues from hunching over and they even at risk issues and we’ve made great progress in the office and addressing those things but then people went home and they were working on on laptops uh… you know maybe twelve or thirteen inch displays attached to it

a that might be a 10-inch keyboard and they put it on a fixed work surface. Maybe their table, maybe their kitchen table and sat in it. God only knows what kind of chair they’re sitting in, which is very different than the office. that caused a whole new set of problems, which we hadn’t seen since the 80s when people first encountered computers. So it was rather an interesting time.

Shelley E. Kohan (04:45.633)
That’s so interesting. think the other challenge will be for those companies that are having workers come back to the office and using what we call shared space, so shared desk space, office space. That’s got to be a challenge because ergonomically I might need one set of, you know, office tools and furniture, but someone who’s sharing a desk with me might need something else.

Robert King (05:09.477)
Well, yeah, mean, people now everything is agile. So an office that has a thousand employees might only have, you know, 600 workstations because not everybody’s in at any given time. Of course, on Tuesday and Wednesday, maybe everyone comes in and then there’s not enough workstations. Then everyone piles into the meeting rooms and uses the meeting rooms as a workstation, which is not ideal.

which is a separate topic. Meeting rooms are changing. Meeting rooms need to change. Their function is changing, but that’s a separate topic. But what’s interesting is that folks come to the office and now they’re able to work on height adjustable desks so they can stand a little bit. They have 40-inch displays that are on monitor arms so they can adjust the display so it’s comfortable for them at the right height and depth and so on.

ergonomic chairs, which is very different from what they were used to at home. so, so now I think folks are realizing that being in the office in that environment is actually quite nice. And it’s that sort of thing that tends to bring people into the office. The fact that it is so much better. Interestingly too though, the idea is that you’ll sit in a different desk and sit in a different chair every day.

And so that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s rather interesting in that, in the, before the pandemic, you would sit in an ergonomic chair that had all kinds of manual controls that you had to operate. If you wanted to adjust it to your weight and you’d adjust the lumbar support. And it’s very interesting. No one actually did that. No one actually knew how to do that. People just sat in these chairs and there’s data on this that, that

from like Cornell did a big study, found that something like 96 % of office workers didn’t know how to do something as basic as lean back in their chair, which is not great. At a human scale, we design things that are super easy to use. So we pioneered ease of use and chairs that you can use without thinking about it. this whole move to agile workplace meant that

Shelley E. Kohan (07:14.571)
That’s crazy.

Robert King (07:33.561)
I mean, theoretically you could adjust your chair, but it would take some time. Now you’re sitting in a different chair and a different desk every day. So ease of use has become really important in the office. We always thought it was hugely important, but now it’s obvious that it’s hugely important. So that’s a big change in the office. All the office furniture companies are coming out with chairs and tables that are really easy to use.

Shelley E. Kohan (07:54.221)
you

Robert King (08:02.949)
which has been a big trend over the last couple of years, which we think is good. It’s a very healthy trend.

Shelley E. Kohan (08:08.608)
That’s great. The other thing, Bob, I love about Human Scale is that you are very, very focused on sustainability. And so you’re doing a lot with solar powered factories, zero waste certification. So tell us a little bit about some of that work you’re doing in terms of sustainability from the production side.

Robert King (08:26.885)
Robert King (08:31.183)
Well, on the production side, on every side, but production is usually particularly important. It’s interesting, I think, in that consumers are more aware of things today. Transparency is more important. Actually, I’m going to, can I interrupt you for one sec? I’ve been, Matt.

I get emails when I get an email it makes it comes up pops up and makes a noise.

Robert King (09:05.573)
Let me turn that off, because I think that might show up. That might show up, I keep getting these emails.

Shelley E. Kohan (09:07.5)
Hi.

Robert King (09:28.973)
Okay. There we are, sorry.

Shelley E. Kohan (09:32.352)
No, that’s good. Do want me to restate the question or you just want to go into the answer? Okay.

Robert King (09:34.245)
Yeah, yeah, you know, you better restate it because I was distracted as usual.

Shelley E. Kohan (09:40.02)
Okay, no worries. So Bob, one of the things I love about Human Scale is like you’re very focused on sustainability. You do a lot with solar powered factories, you have zero waste certification. So tell us a little bit about the work that you’ve been doing in terms of sustainability and production.

Robert King (09:58.895)
Yeah, on the operation side, which is kind of the heart of a company when it comes to sustainability, we’ve always felt that we need to be the leader in our industry. Because if we lead, other folks will be encouraged to follow. So we’ve done a number of things on the production side. All of our factories globally get the majority of their power from solar, which is on the roofs of all of our buildings.

All of our facilities have rainwater capture. The majority of water we use is captured from rain. All of our facilities are zero waste to landfill certified. We’re the only company in our industry that has even one factory that’s zero waste certified. And so we’ve done a lot on the operation side. We do…

a lot of our own production. So we do our own injection molding, our own die casting in-house, which has a huge impact on the carbon footprint of our products, because we don’t have to transport things all over the place. And the equipment we use is the latest and very efficient, it uses less power. So we’ve done a number of things on that side just to make us better for the environment. We believe that

Ultimately, as an organization, it’s our obligation to leave the planet better off. The trend has been, and what everyone talks about, is doing less harm. But ultimately, there’s no future for any of us if we all do less harm. We ultimately have to actually leave the planet better off. And we’ve made a number of strides in that direction. We’re not there yet, but we’ve made a number of strides to get there.

Shelley E. Kohan (11:53.314)
Well, I applaud you in your efforts and thank you so much. It’s a great way to look at it. It’s not just about doing no harm, but really being more proactive. So thank you for your efforts there.

Robert King (12:05.091)
No, we’ve always cared deeply about the environment. I grew up as a kid in the woods and streams and rivers, and it’s just a part of who we are, which I think is usually important to me, but it’s also really important to everyone who works here. think people take great pride in being with a company that’s very, very committed to things. sorry. No, I think…

Shelley E. Kohan (12:28.065)
So No, no, go ahead.

Robert King (12:32.259)
having values and having principles that you stand for is very important to the folks who work here. I think it’s surprisingly important, which has been wonderful for me to see.

Shelley E. Kohan (12:45.773)
That’s fantastic. Let me ask you a question about consumerism. So on the fashion side of the industry, consumers say that they want sustainable products, but when they’re looking at a pair of jeans and one is sustainable, but it’s $10 or $15 higher than the one that isn’t sustainable, they end up choosing the one that’s not sustainable. So part of it’s a cost factor. Tell me about, you know, furniture and office furniture, and are you seeing that same thing? Are you seeing something different?

Robert King (13:13.615)
We see the same thing, of course. There’s a certain part of the market, and it’s probably the majority of the market, that cares about sustainability. But if something is quite a bit more expensive than something else that’s not sustainable, they’ll make the lower cost selection. Not everyone, a lot of people are living paycheck to paycheck. A lot of people can’t afford to buy things that are super sustainable. And the truth is that

sustainability to do things in a sustainable way is generally more expensive. If it wasn’t more expensive, no one would have to worry. If it wasn’t more expensive, everyone would just do it automatically. But it is more expensive. The good news is that there’s a growing segment of our market, and I suspect every market, that cares deeply about sustainability and are making choices that are sustainable, even if they are a bit more expensive.

Shelley E. Kohan (13:53.953)
Right.

Robert King (14:13.829)
there’s a movement toward quality. I mean, we’ve seen that on the retail side. We’ve seen a lot of large retailers that sell low cost product, often the majority of which might come in from a country like China that doesn’t use sustainable practices. We’ve seen many of them fail or decline where high quality outlets have thrived. And so I think we’re not there yet, but more and more consumers are concerned about.

Shelley E. Kohan (14:25.997)
Mm-hmm.

Robert King (14:41.551)
quality and sustainability which go hand in hand.

Shelley E. Kohan (14:45.035)
No, that’s great. So I have to ask you this question. It’s the hottest question out there is regarding global trade, tariffs, policy changes. So a lot of these things that have been ongoing over the past year have really forced a lot of companies into design innovations and sourcing changes. So how are you coping with all this?

Robert King (15:07.231)
Everyone is struggling with that and not everyone I shouldn’t say that they the retail sector and the manufacturing sector are the two sectors that have that have been hit with with the tariffs Which is which is if you think about it, maybe not ideal the service sector the banking sector all those sectors are have been isolated from Well, what’s happened of course over many years manufacturers have

had more complex supply chains, more complex than ever. We tend to make parts in places that are really good at making those parts. And of course, the tariffs are driving people to make parts in the United States, because there’s tariffs globally. I there’s tariffs on virtually every country outside of the United States. And so that’s, it’s good and it’s bad.

It’s good in that it’s impacted countries that are not sustainable. So we have far less trade with countries like China, which would make very inexpensive things that are not sustainable in any way, that are harmful not only to the planet, but often to people working in factories there. And it’s reduced the reliance on those places, which is a healthy, really a healthily healthy thing for the planet. And I think a good thing.

And it’s been good for our industry because we don’t have these really cheap products coming in from places like China at low costs that are not sustainable. On the other hand though, it’s driving us to do silly things like do high labor content manufacturing in Ohio or New Jersey. So doing aluminum diecast and steel forging.

that are really tough, dirty jobs in the US doesn’t make any sense. There’s not enough folks that want those jobs. it would add a tremendous amount of cost. so those things, tariffs are driving them to the United States. They really belong in places like Mexico, where folks would love to have jobs like that.

Robert King (17:32.897)
and you can make things much more efficiently. And so it’s a double-edged sword. These tariffs have had some positive effects, but a lot of negative effects. And of course, by putting a significant financial burden on retailers and manufacturers, it’s kind of the opposite of what we’re trying to achieve with the tariffs in the first place.

Shelley E. Kohan (18:00.129)
Yeah, it’s been really difficult for a lot of different areas in our industry for sure. So tell us what’s the future of retail design when you kind of look at human scale. There’s luxury, there’s wellness, sustainability, but of course there’s productivity. So what does it look like down the road?

Robert King (18:17.925)
design in terms of our business or of retail? Yeah. Well, our business, you know, we’re obsessed with making things that are super easy to use, very minimal, very restrained visually, very high quality, and so on. We’ve mostly focused on the office. We’re getting into the home. We want to be the leader in high-end residential home office.

Shelley E. Kohan (18:21.643)
Yeah, both, both would be great, yeah.

Robert King (18:47.341)
and that’ll grow into different parts of the home as well. We’ve just launched a lounge chair that incorporates a work surface and actually can have multiple work surfaces. So you can work from a lounge chair and so on, number of different products that are kind of interesting. On the retail side, what we’re seeing on the retail store side, of course, is enhancing the experience of the shopper.

making it more convenient and easier to shop so that you can check out easily and not wait in long line. So there’s automatic checkout. And if you’re shopping, you can get information about products you’re shopping for. So if you’re in an aisle and you’re looking at, I don’t know, soup, you can have, there can be a technology there that displays, they can give you information about the different soups you’re looking at. they?

Shelley E. Kohan (19:18.391)
Yes.

Robert King (19:45.349)
Are they healthy or do they have certain ingredients? Are they okay for someone who has an allergy? That sort of thing is going to enhance the experience of the shopper and make shopping more efficient, which is better not only for the shopper, but for the organization. And human scale, we think there’s a really important place for us there. We’re the leader in supporting technology.

in the workplace, healthcare offices and so on. We want to be the leader in supporting technology in retail. So kiosks where people check out, supporting monitors and information displays in the stores. That sort of thing is really important to do it well. And of course, we do that sort of thing very well. So that’s an important new business for us and I think the future of retail as well.

Shelley E. Kohan (20:44.309)
I love that. So I want to ask you question about the lounge chair. Is that the different lounge chair? Is that the…

Robert King (20:48.901)
That’s the Differeant Lounge here designed by Niels Differeant, a long time collaborator with Human Scale. He passed away unfortunately in 2013, but we’ve been working, he worked on it for 10 years before he passed away and we’ve worked on it for what, 12 years since then. So it’s been a long road, but we finally launched it and it’s really cool.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:15.457)
What did you launch it this year?

Robert King (21:17.315)
We just launched it this year at the Neocon trade show in Chicago.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:21.239)
That’s fantastic, and it’s getting all kinds of design world buzz. So our listeners should definitely check it out. It is absolutely something consumers that check all those boxes, the comfort, the luxury, the productivity, right?

Robert King (21:35.961)
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for the for the kind words on that. Yeah, absolutely.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:40.919)
So is there anything else before we leave that you would like to say, any closing comments or last kind of points that you’d like to make with our listeners?

Robert King (21:49.413)
The only thing that occurs to me is the issue of transparency. I’ve always been obsessed with transparency. I transparency is hugely important when it comes to consumers making decisions. think consumers are more sophisticated now than they ever were. Thank you to the internet. And I think that’s a really positive thing when it comes to sustainability and quality. Now people see through greenwashing.

where they didn’t before. now companies are not able to get away with just saying that they’re doing good things. They actually have to legitimately be doing good things. And I think in the future, more and more companies are going to be legitimately doing good things and are going to be moving toward a much healthier planet and much healthier people too. So, transparency is a very positive force that’s heading us in the right direction.

It’s one of our core values here.

Shelley E. Kohan (22:50.303)
I love that Bob. Thank you so much and thanks for joining us today. I’m sure our listeners learned a lot.

Robert King (22:55.717)
That’s nice of you to say, I hope so. Thank you, Shelley, I really enjoyed talking. All right.

Shelley E. Kohan (23:00.782)
Thank you.