Shelley E. Kohan (00:01.629)
Hi everybody, thanks for joining our weekly podcast. I’m Shelley Cohen and I am so thrilled to welcome back Kevin Finnegan.

Kevin (00:11.437)
Hi Shelly, how are you? I’m glad to be back.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:13.422)
I’m doing great. You are from global recruiters of low country. But more importantly, you and I, can’t believe I’m going to say this, but I’m going to say it, Kevin. You and I have been talking shop for, I’m going to say over two decades.

Kevin (00:30.223)
I was going to say close to 25 years, yes.

Shelley E. Kohan (00:33.652)
It is 25 years, yes. So anyway, one of the things I love about you is when you’re super smart, of course. And the second thing is I think you’ve worked every job in our industry.

Kevin (00:46.799)
Yeah, I’ve had my share of jobs and now I’m helping people find jobs and helping them move their careers forward and you know that’s the new chapter for me but it’s a lot of fun.

Shelley E. Kohan (01:00.066)
Well, it’s an interesting time to be in recruiting.

Kevin (01:02.959)
It certainly is. know, I’ll tell you, things got very, very quiet last year, like around the middle of the year. And I honestly thought once, regardless of your political persuasion, once the election was decided, businesses could get back to thinking about how to build their business, how to improve their offering. And then it didn’t just quite happen. And it’s only been probably the last

two weeks, maybe four weeks max, where it seems like companies are no longer sitting on their hands and wanting to start to say, all right, you know, we’ve got to build our business. We got to differentiate ourselves from our competition. And we got to find a way to stay relevant in this ever-changing retail environment.

Shelley E. Kohan (01:53.026)
Yeah, certainly. And of course, we’re also gearing up for holiday season too. So try to get that talent, right?

Kevin (01:57.679)
Well, it’s funny, I just hung up with somebody on Monday and they said, I’m going to head to the airport now. I’m going for my holiday strategy meetings. And for a moment it hit me like, my gosh, we’re already up to that already, you know?

Shelley E. Kohan (02:14.538)
Yeah, and there’s a lot going on in our environment, but let’s stick to so one of the first questions I have for you is I have to bring up AI. Everyone’s freaking out. AI is going to take my job. AI is going to take my job. So maybe you can talk a little bit about how you frontline workers or executives should be really looking at AI. What’s the real truth here?

Kevin (02:34.767)
Well, I will say to you that I’m hearing that question during conversations with people who are either thinking about changing their job or just really asking, am I doing the right thing as far as what I do as a coach? And I think I read yesterday or maybe the day before, two and a half billion people use chat GPT prompts every single day. So,

It’s changing ever so fast. And in addition to changing, there’s no going back. I mean, this is what we must face. So, business is definitely going to be affected by it. You could sit there and say, well, obviously analytics and insights will be affected.

And things like localized pricing and offers to individuals via email that are based upon their search and based upon their previous purchases. And I think the marketing area is going to change a lot, whether it’s the content or the promotions that people get. I actually was talking to a friend of mine that supports the retail industry and he told me he used to have content writers that were

costing him thousands of dollars and sometimes it would take two weeks and then he’d have to order it and make changes and send it back to them. And he said, now I can do that myself in an hour and a half and two hours. So yeah, there will be jobs that will be affected by it. And I get this question a lot. The first thing I say to people is, I think you gotta take time to understand it. It’s gonna hurt some people’s jobs.

Shelley E. Kohan (03:59.897)
yeah.

Kevin (04:23.489)
And it’s going to change other ones dramatically. But I think the key is to stop trying to compete with it and start collaborating with it and use it to amplify, you know, I’ll call it your human skills, the things that you’re good at, negotiation, know, conflict resolution, empathy, those kinds of things. And my…

Shelley E. Kohan (04:37.079)
Right.

Kevin (04:48.171)
Advice is, and I’ve done it myself, is to, there’s so many free classes that are available. Go out and take 30 minutes every day at the end of the day and learn about it and realize it can take the monthing things off your desk, the memos that you have to write or the projects you have to follow up on. So you can be more effective and it can help you kind of collate all the data that we look at all the time to say.

What’s really the important data that I need to know that’s gonna drive my performance and drive my team’s performance?

Shelley E. Kohan (05:22.774)
Yeah, it’s interesting that you brought up marketing. So I went to a marketing conference, I think it was like two years ago. And I was kind of surprised because all the CMOs in the room and the VPs of marketing, they were legitimately scared and they were talking openly about, know, AI is going to take all of our jobs. And, you know, it’s interesting about the content example that you gave one of the problems with this, you know, going from a two to three week content

creation mode to a 60 minute content creation mode is there’s going to be an awful lot of content. But you still need that thought leadership to decide, determine, figure out what content is actually most relevant. You can’t just push all that content to the marketplace. It won’t work that way.

Kevin (06:11.459)
Yeah, I mean, you know, I think back to, I think it was last summer when the Hollywood writers were on strike because all of a sudden, you know, shows were gonna be created by chat. And I believe maybe it was Sports Illustrated Magazine actually did an entire issue that was completely done by chat. I do think sometimes you can get something and you can tell it.

It doesn’t have the human voice. doesn’t have the emotion. It doesn’t have the the know, the bravitas of somebody who is communicating to you. So I don’t think it’s it takes some work to figure out the right way to do it. But yes, there’s unquestionably it is something that comes up in a lot of conversations and you know, how do I stay relevant? And my other answer to people is.

constantly be curious and growing your skills, up skill and look outside of the guidelines of the job that you’re doing now. Like because you’re doing that in 2025 doesn’t mean you have to be doing that in 2027. So make yourself as valuable as you can to any organization. And again, don’t forget the soft skills pot, the human factor.

Shelley E. Kohan (07:32.876)
Definitely. So I love how you brought up upskilling and actually net net. So I’m sure you read the jobs report from the World Economic Forum that came out earlier this year. But actually, AI is creating more jobs than it actually is destroying. So net net, there’s going to be a plus on the job. So that’s one thing. But here’s the crazy statistic that I’m going to share with you. And it goes to your point about upskilling. So if if you have 100 people in a workforce,

Kevin (07:47.727)
Correct. Yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (08:01.55)
59 of those would need to be trained by 2030. So this whole upskilling is so important. 85 % of employers are really wanting to upskill the workforce. makes sense. And here’s the kicker, Kevin. Guess what can help upskill your workforce? AI.

Kevin (08:04.879)
Thank you.

Kevin (08:21.933)
Yep. Well, you funny, you mentioned the World Economic Report. I did read it, but I didn’t read it. I put it into chat and I asked it to summarize it for me. how much time did that? What are the key points that I need to understand? So that’s the beauty of it.

Shelley E. Kohan (08:38.253)
Yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (08:41.612)
And I think when we look at what jobs are growing in retail, salespeople, sales being on that front line is a job that is actually gonna see more growth and delivery drivers, of course, with the fulfillment side of things. So those are, again, two positives for retail is a lot of those entry-level jobs in other parts of our business that might be going away, like the content creation piece that you gave an example of marketing.

You can’t replace a salesperson in a store. Those jobs are still going to be there. I started as salesperson. It’s a great entry into a field of retail.

Kevin (09:22.207)
And I sometimes wonder whether the importance of that job will be elevated. Look, you know, my background is I’m a stores guy. And I don’t think retail needs a total reinvention. I do think it needs to put a greater focus on the humanization piece. I think that we’re in brands, the ones we look at that we all admire.

They’re the ones that their stores are really essential to the organization. And it’s more than just the place to buy. It’s, yeah, we use the word community a lot. And we talk about, you know, the sensory perceptions and just associates that can not only just do transactions, but can tell stories and can, you know, put a value even greater than the purchase that they’re making by

by reiterating how the person looks in the item or what it does for them. And I hope that is one of the outcomes is we start to get a greater focus on what the stores mean to us.

Shelley E. Kohan (10:36.926)
No, I agree and I think stores are really the key to that sustainable competitive advantage. Okay, we’re gonna move on to a different topic because I’m dying to get your view on this. This is a real hot topic right now and it’s such a big topic. Kevin, it now has its own acronym. Okay, it’s RTO. R-T-O. Return to office. I can’t believe it has an acronym but man, a lot of companies are out there mandating, pushing.

Kevin (10:57.613)
Return to. Yes.

Shelley E. Kohan (11:05.772)
that workers have to return. So what’s your view on this mandate?

Kevin (11:10.299)
I will say this to you. When I was recruiting two years ago, almost every person, I don’t care what the job was, had two prerequisites. One was either work remotely and some people were open to some form of hybrid. I don’t hear that as much. And I refer to it as, I think there’s a real generational issue that goes into this.

To me, it’s almost like a tug of war between what the corporations want and what the individual associate wants. And I can relate to it on both arguments. When I think about it, I think it’s more than this issue itself. I think it’s exposed in some deep factors. I mentioned generational expectations, but I think about

If I’m on the side that says, I don’t want to return to the office, I know of people who during COVID, because they were working remotely, moved further away from the office because of the cost of living, the cost of buying a home, they could finally afford something and they didn’t have to make that commute. And then in maybe some cases, they had a child. So now, you know, they have to deal with all of this and

The future of isn’t really remote or office. I think it’s going to challenge leadership about what I think is a purposeful presence. I think they have to reframe the conversation as to not that we have a lease or we own the building, but why is it important? And I think you can make some interesting arguments. Now, on one side, I would say to you, I think of one of my kids who she

Kevin (13:07.821)
She’s in retail and she has to be in the office two days a week. Her husband has to be in his work two days a week. They have a child. So the child is in daycare four days a week and they alternate their two days. So they’re always one of them is close to home. And then on the fifth day, a family member watches the child, which saves them some money. So they’ve been able to work it out that way. If they’re both told they have to go back to work five days a week, I don’t know what they do.

I think I was reading 60 % of households have dual income workers. So yeah, and that’s a big, big issue. So I get that. And I also get the other side. Like, do I think that…

Shelley E. Kohan (13:43.47)
that’s tremendous.

Kevin (13:58.733)
You know, do I think that the culture is evaporating? Because and I always think about the person who just starts with a company and gets onboarded via a one or two hour zoom instead of being in the building, seeing how decisions are made, seeing the people and getting to know them on a personal level. So I it’s this is going to be a tough thing. And if it is really a tug of war, it looks like as of recently.

Shelley E. Kohan (14:13.767)
Right.

Kevin (14:28.067)
The company is winning the tug of war. So many of them are, you know, drawing that line in the sand and saying, you have to get back into the office. So I think there’s a few things that are available there. I don’t believe a lot of the leaders in business really understand how to adapt to a team that’s not with them regularly. You know, do they have regularly set up touch bases that are partnerships? Are they talking to these people about developmental opportunities?

And I think that’s what’s really missing right now. So where it’s going, I think eventually it will get back to at the very least hybrid, if not more than some companies saying full time. Now, I believe in five weeks from now, the gap in its San Francisco office, New York office, and they have a bifurcated office somewhere in the United States to handle back office things. Everyone needs to go back. And I believe they were given like a nine month warning, but

I have to tell you, my phone’s been ringing off the hook the last couple of weeks when people are realizing they’re not backing down on this. This is gonna happen. So tough decisions gotta be made on both sides. What do hear?

Shelley E. Kohan (15:38.669)
What?

I don’t know, Kevin. I’m with you. I’m kind of on the fence. But here’s a couple problems I have with a mandate back to work. And a lot of companies, think more than half of the Fortune 500 companies are mandating that worker. So here’s the thing. This younger generation, they don’t do well with mandates. They’re a generation that is going to do what they’re going to do. Again, I have two sons. Neither one of them would

Kevin (15:55.331)
and dating.

Shelley E. Kohan (16:11.082)
even consider working for a boss that they don’t get along with. They just would quit and get another job. Whereas in our day, when we were in the retail industry, if you didn’t like your boss, Kevin, what’d you do? You toughed it out, right?

Kevin (16:21.231)
You sucked it up, you sucked it up and you just kept going. And that’s why I say at beginning, this is unequivocally a generational issue. And it’s gonna be interesting to see what happens because do you go back because you need that paycheck or do you find something else?

Shelley E. Kohan (16:25.644)
That’s exactly.

Shelley E. Kohan (16:42.378)
I think it’s going to be really tough. I also, I understand why companies want people in the office, the culture, the innovation that’s lacking from doing what cross functional. And here, here’s the one thing, Kevin, that I feel very passionate about. I believe that this remote work is very detrimental to underrepresented groups. I think they become even more underrepresented.

Kevin (16:51.471)
functional partnerships.

Shelley E. Kohan (17:11.022)
when they’re in a remote environment. And I think that, so that’s, think a big thing that we have to consider when we talk about, you know, work from home, that kind of plays it mandate back to work, right?

Kevin (17:19.971)
Yeah.

Kevin (17:25.167)
I’ll be honest, I had not thought about it that way, but it’s an interesting point that you make. but, and the other thing I think that’s a little difficult is if some people are going in and others aren’t, do they get passed over for promotions or, or bigger projects, opportunities, those kinds of things? Or, you know, what happens if a high performer says, I’m not doing this?

Shelley E. Kohan (17:47.042)
Absolutely.

Kevin (17:55.929)
Do you roll the dice and give them an exception and then have to explain to everybody else? And so it’s gonna be some muddy water for a while. Should be interesting to see how it comes out.

Shelley E. Kohan (18:05.507)
Yeah.

And I agree with you, Kevin. don’t think it can be mandated one or the other. I think you’re right. I think this hybrid model seems to satisfy both. And we have to figure out if we’re going to do remote work. We have to kind of figure out how to get around some of the barriers to remote work. We have to figure it out with all the technology out there and everything that we can use from a technological standpoint. There’s got to be ways to

keep innovation going, not making sure we’re not looking over people for promotion. There’s all kinds of technology out there that we should be utilizing to make the work from home actually really work favorable for the company and the employee.

Kevin (18:56.409)
to all leaders.

have scheduled within agenda touch bases with their direct reports on a regular basis with follow up on the items from the previous meeting that you had with them. Or do they sometimes become like, I got called into a meeting, we’ll do this some other time and some other time doesn’t come. And that’s where I think people get disengaged. You talked about your sons and the importance of trust and…

And that was really what I was talking about at the very beginning. I think the leadership of organizations have to say to themselves, yeah, this is about working from home, but what else is going on here? What other message are we getting? And we’re not reacting to. And I will share with you a story of, I know firsthand of a company that did an employee survey and the number one positive thing

was the ability to work from home. And I think the number was 97 or 98 % of the people had that in their top three. And two weeks later, with no explanation, they put out an idiot saying, we’re going back to the office. And it almost begs the question, why would you ask the question if you’re gonna disregard such a groundswell of support for something?

And I know for a fact that people in that organization are now sitting there saying they’re among that 50 % of associates that are already out looking for another job.

Shelley E. Kohan (20:36.078)
Yeah, that’s really interesting. And here’s a statistic for you on that. So these companies that have mandated these back, you know, RTO return to works, they are experiencing a 14, 14 % rise in turnover after implementing the return to office mandate. So higher turnover for sure in our industry, not a good thing. We already have enough high turnover.

Kevin (21:02.831)
And if it’s 14, it’s only gonna grow. I mean, because it’s in many cases, it’s a matter of somebody finding the next job that they want. And you touched on this point with your sons. The one thing that I hear so regularly, particularly from that next generation down is not about title. It’s not about money. It’s about the mission of the brand. It’s about the culture.

It’s about being respected and it’s about seeing a growth pattern where they can develop in an organization.

Shelley E. Kohan (21:40.332)
Yep, and it’s not always like a hierarchy pattern. It’s a, you know, you know, a broad, you know, people want to go to companies, they can learn a lot of things. It could be lateral, not just a vertical, right? Yeah. All right. So it’s interesting when you and I were preparing for our podcast, you actually threw a question to me, which I’m going to throw back to you. can you can pick who’s going to answer this first. And that is one wish that you or I had.

Kevin (21:52.129)
Exactly, Yes. Yeah.

Shelley E. Kohan (22:09.902)
for the industry not only to survive, but to prosper. So you can answer it first or you can ask me to answer it first.

Kevin (22:17.865)
I’ll go first. Look, I’m going to preface my comments by saying I’m biased. My heart has always been as a stores guy. I believe that is where your brand comes alive. That’s what the consumer thinks of when they think of your brand. And by no means am I anti-e-commerce.

We have to live together. is a beautiful thing. But I think to be a successful rebit tail brand over a period of time, you know, we’ve seen all these one hit wonders. You got to be more than that moment. You got to have this haunt them, real mindset. Trends are going to fade and formats are going to change and platforms are going to evolve. But brands that endure are really relentlessly clear. And think about the ones that

always do well. They’re clear about who they are, who they serve, and what’s their reason for existing. And they listen without losing their voice. They adapt without abandoning, you know, their core customer base. And they build loyalty and you use the word trust a little while ago. It’s not about just transactions. It’s, know, how are you relevant as a campaign? And it’s really a commitment. So

I would love to see a focus on stores. I just don’t feel like it exists. Anything from the execution to the support to the tools to the training and development. mean, training is more than product training, giving people product knowledge. It’s teaching them how to be storytellers and how to engage with customers and relate to the customer.

Shelley E. Kohan (24:10.2)
Yes.

Kevin (24:12.953)
That’s how you’re build trust and loyalty. And I think it’s a beautiful thing. And I think there’s gold in the hills of the stores and it’s not being mined by a lot of retailers. I’m not saying they all feel this way, but sometimes it feels like that expense line is an expense and it’s not an asset. Great.

sales associates, professional sales associates, and I’m not just talking luxury. I’m talking at all different factions of the business. Create memorable experiences that that customer is going to want to come back. So I would love to see a huge focus on stores. How do you make stores really meaningful where the traffic is not going to just be coming in to see what you have, but is

coming in because they enjoy being in your store and they address all your senses. But I guess I’m, I am biased. I’m a stores guy and I just see so much opportunity. I live 20 minutes from the Walt Whitman mall and every time I go up there, I just think to myself, there’s so many great brands here and it’s not being executed the way it could be executed. And then you go past the Apple store and you get a nosebleed. There’s so many customers in there. So.

Shelley E. Kohan (25:22.786)
You

Shelley E. Kohan (25:36.362)
It’s true. And I want to go back to something really important that you said that I think a lot of retailers are missing. You said that teaching is not just training about technical training on the job, but you mentioned socialization. So teaching associates how to socialize with customers. I’m telling you, Gen Alphas and even the Millennials, they’ve grown up on technology.

That is a key skill that must be trained. And I don’t know if that’s being trained.

Kevin (26:04.719)
Yeah, actually a friend of mine, David, David Haroche from Multimedia Plus just did a LinkedIn post yesterday about that very issue and it’s real. And it’s funny, I read what he posted and I had a different perspective. I just thought, God, this kid is disengaged, rude. And now I’m realizing it’s a cultural thing.

But I don’t think it’s going to fly over the long term.

Shelley E. Kohan (26:39.554)
Yeah All right. So here’s my what I would like to see change about our industry to prosper and i’m also going to tell you I am biased So my big passion for the industry is getting more women into those higher ranking leadership roles I just recently back in march launched a broadcast series called lead like her and it’s all about women stories

helping other women succeed. I wrote a leadership course at Fashion Institute of Technology. I have this big passion to help students and young women really kind of rise up in our industry. And it’s just, it’s mind boggling to me that the glass ceiling is alive and well. It hasn’t been shattered. It hasn’t been broken. Yes, there’s little cracks in it, but there’s a lot more we could do as an industry because when you think about it, the…

executives at the top are serving an industry that’s predominantly the consumers female. So I would love to see that change about our industry.

Kevin (27:41.881)
Female. Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin (27:46.969)
Well, I think it’s wonderful that you’re doing that, but, and I’m not sure how to frame what I want to say, but if it’s just women helping women.

It’s going to take longer to get there. It’s got to be something that’s embraced by everyone. And if most of the C-suite is male, and I’m sure somebody that might be listening to that would also say most of the C-suite is white male and middle-aged, if not older, I think they need to be part of the discussion.

Shelley E. Kohan (28:27.678)
Absolutely, and here’s something interesting. I’m so glad you brought that up So two things one is that a lot of the leaders that I interviewed it’s so funny because they were they’re a little bit younger than I am and When I was asking them questions and I would say something like well in a male dominated, you know, know, how do you you know, how do you you know work through the you being a woman in a male that dominated field or whatever and

I swear a couple of these leaders said, honestly, Shelly, I don’t even like look at it that way. It’s all of us together. So even the younger leaders are saying that they don’t even see that being a woman has been a disadvantage for them in the industry. They just don’t see it. The other thing I will tell you is that my producers and I have been talking about at some point expanding the lead like her into a leadership series.

that is just a leadership series, including all people.

Kevin (29:28.175)
So do you think it’s overt?

Or is it, I think one of the things about human nature is right, wrong, or indifferent, we kind of relate to what we understand. So do you think it’s overt that’s keeping this from happening?

Shelley E. Kohan (29:55.32)
there’s characteristics of men and women that are differently. And so I think that acts as a barrier sometimes. And I think it’s our what I would say our unconscious bias is play there too. And we could probably have a whole nother podcast on this topic because it’s you know, it’s a big topic, the leadership at the top needs to really kind of be more diverse. To be honest.

Kevin (30:20.237)
Okay, so, and one other thing that I’m thinking of is like, you look at people in the middle, you know, that they’re not the VP level, they’re not associates, but they’re learning how to manage.

There are a lot of women in there.

what is being done, what’s the obligation of an organization to recognize talent and give, whether it’s projects or exposure or skills or whatever, to help this person grow and develop their career. Because I think there’s a lot of great folks that are getting caught in that middle area.

Shelley E. Kohan (31:08.404)
I totally agree. I think, and I was going to ask your opinion on this, with everything that’s happening in our industry, where is that middle management bench going? Do we still have it? What’s happening with that?

Kevin (31:22.511)
Well, I read an article a while ago and this has been something I’ve been thinking a lot about. I think it was Deloitte said the number of what let’s call them middle management job ads is down something like 32%. Oh, since 2022, they make up about one third of

you know, when companies reorganize or go through, you know, head count cuts, they make up one third. So the people that stay on that are in middle management now have picked up more responsibility. They have more direct reports and they claim, and I hear this when I’m interviewing folks and as recently as yesterday, I spoke to two people about this.

They feel stretched because management has one set of things and their associates are asking other things and they’re caught in the middle. They’re not given enough communication. They’re not given enough of the why and they feel rather rather incompetent. And then you throw in there. I’m not seeing myself develop. I’m not seeing the growth opportunities and and that’s why so many of them are looking for their

their next chapter. And we may have touched on this before, but the first thing they talk about is, I’m looking for a culture. I’m looking for a place that I can relate to. There’s a message for a lot of organizations to sit down and ask themselves, how is our, you know, if I walk out on the floor and really get to know, how are they feeling? Are they?

Shelley E. Kohan (32:53.57)
Yeah.

Kevin (33:11.375)
feeling like they belong here? Are they feeling like there’s a future? And I’m feeling like we really care about them. And I don’t think it’s a free lunch and those kinds of things.

Shelley E. Kohan (33:24.93)
Now it used to be a free lunch, but now it’s not. So when you talk about all these mergers, reorganizations, acquisitions, you’re right, that middle management job doubles. So now they have twice as much work and Kevin, and they’re being mandated to go to the office. So I don’t know. It’s something we need to think about that bench for the growing in our industry.

Kevin (33:46.543)
Little bit different of a twist, but I spoke to someone earlier this week who is a district manager for a very well-known retailer has six states 24 stores 24 direct reports six states two time zones and She’s frankly not feeling like she loves to coach and loves to develop and loves building teams and she

kind of alluded to me, well, what I’m doing, I’m treading water. I’m keeping from falling down, but I’m not growing my business the way I know I’m capable, because there’s just not enough hours in the day.

Shelley E. Kohan (34:31.03)
Yeah Well kevin it’s always a pleasure having you on the podcast and thanks so much for being here Do you have any closing last minute thoughts you want to add?

Kevin (34:41.201)
gosh, we’ve touched on so many things. I don’t know, you know what, listen, I absolutely love the retail business. We’re not without our problems, but I remain cautiously optimistic all the time that the future can be brighter. And yeah, maybe a little bit might be AI and maybe it is just really understanding that we got to start listening more to the customer and.

and really be focused on what are the things that need to happen in order to stay relevant in as a business and keep it growing. And love this business. I know it’s a crazy one, but you know, all of us are in it for a reason and there’s some reason why we’re continuing with it. So I just wish everybody who is in the industry the best and a great holiday season. And thank you for your time today.

Shelley E. Kohan (35:34.498)
and thank you to our listeners.

Kevin (35:36.687)
Thank you. Yes.

Shelley E. Kohan (35:38.296)
Thank you.