Haley Boehning (00:05)
Mary

Jo Pile once walked out into an Ohio snowstorm, lay down on her back like a snow angel, and asked herself, Am I going to be able to keep doing this? Spoiler alert, she did for another three decades. Welcome to Lead Like Her from The Robin Report. I’m Hailey Boning, and my guest today is Mary Jo Pile.

Mary Jo took her first retail job at the age of 16. And while she led stores for a number of very well known and loved international brands, she never really left the shop floor. And she’ll tell you, she never wants to. MJ joined Express when it had just 26 stores and spent the next two decades helping grow it and limited brands into a family of brands. Later, she led all customer engagement at Aeropostal.

And then she channeled all of those entrepreneurial lessons that she picked up to co-found a new brand that’s now almost 20 years old, Call Your West. A brand and a business that was built, in her words, on this foundation of passion and filled from top to bottom with one-of-a-kind finds from artists and artisans around the world. In this conversation, Mary Jo and I get into the difference between a cheerleader and a coach.

What changes and what doesn’t when you go from leading one store to leading thousands, then to leading yourself as an entrepreneur, and what hard work and real hunger to keep learning can do for a career. We also talk, very honestly, about why having a little FU money can make all the difference. Let’s get into my conversation.

Haley Boehning (01:40)
well Mary Jo, it’s so great to have you on Lead Like Her. Thank you so much for joining me for coffee this morning.

Mary JO (01:46)
great, happy to be here. Got my coffee.

Haley Boehning (01:48)
Great. I got got my coffee too.

So you’ve had a really remarkable career in retail.

and when I spoke with

a group of students at FIT earlier this year, the one thing that came up over and over again was the question of entrepreneurship. You know, they all were excited by retail and looking forward to their first new jobs, but really curious about this leap from

someone inside a larger brand to actually launching their own. So we’re gonna spend a little bit of time talking about that, but I would like you to go in the way, way back machine with me and think

Mary JO (02:24)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (02:25)
about your early days in retail. Can you tell us your first job in retail and how you got it?

Mary JO (02:32)
my gosh. My first job in retail was when I was 16 years old. And my friend and I were wandering through South Coast Plaza in Los you know, Orange County, California. and we walked into this store it was called Chris’s Fashion, no longer in existence. and I remember chatting with the manager and

And she said, come back at five o’clock and we’ll see how you do. And this true story. I went home, changed my clothes, got dolled up, and came back at five o’clock. And I can never I can’t even remember her name. Her name like Cynthia Box. And she put me on the sales floor and I had never really

worked with customers before other than at Winchell’s Donuts house. and McDonald’s where I worked at for two days. But other than that, I hadn’t really worked with with that type of apparel or with that type of customer. And anyway, in that day and age, I sold five hundred dollars in that town from five to nine, which today would be like three thousand dollars. And I remember going home that night

And this a true story. Going home that night and telling my parents this is what I’m doing the rest of my life at sixteen years old. ‘Cause I loved it. I loved being around the apparel. I loved moving the racks around. I loved straightening. I loved working with the customer. you know, I just I loved the environment. so it just resonated with me immediately. You know, I was very fortunate. I know sometimes it takes people a while to figure out

you know, their their passion or what there might be what might resonate with them. And for me, it just it came so natural and so quick. And, you know, that’s what I’ve done since. In one form or another. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (04:39)
It’s amazing. It’s it is

interesting. Retail seems to attract people who are so passionate about it. I wonder

Mary JO (04:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (04:46)
what was there, you know, that that confidence that you had at 16 as

Mary JO (04:50)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (04:51)
you moved into your 20s and you were in your first few, you know, few first few jobs within the corporate office or within management, was there ever a time that you that you doubted yourself? And how did you overcome that?

Mary JO (05:07)
Think I was too naive to doubt myself.

Haley Boehning (05:10)
Yeah.

Mary JO (05:11)
I’m just like, yeah, I I can do this. I’m good at this. and I don’t think that came in till later in my career. I definitely later on. but in the early days especially I worked

I worked my way into store management, then district management, then regional, then vice president, executive vice president, and then shop owner. But in my early days I was very I felt very confident. I think one of the things that I probably did more so than other people in that world at the time.

was I just worked my ass off. You know? I did. I but I did it because I loved it. You know, I loved it. And I yeah, I would I mean those were the days limited where we were required to work f at least five days a week. And then one day we had to do a stretch day, which was open to close.

And you weren’t even paid for it. But I was like, I love this. I don’t care. And you know, when we would have store visits, you know, from the big honchos from Ohio, I I would like almost stay overnight in the store and make sure every hanger was spaced exactly a quarter inch. There wasn’t a speck of dust. Every, you know, piece of merchandise was either stained or somehow

accessorized or, you know, fluffed a little bit. I and I remember Michael Weiss and Pete Grimes, who I’m sure a lot of people know, were I opened with twenty-six express stores. I was this 26 store to open for limited brands and we only had maybe eight stores in California at the time. And you know, they just people didn’t step up.

I’ll never forget Pete Grimes telling me the only good thing that came out of California at that time was Mary Joe. That was it. I’ll never forget that

Haley Boehning (07:22)
Wow, that’s a compliment.

Mary JO (07:25)
backhanded compliment. I’m like, okay. But no, I I think that was I just had a lot of fortitude and I I loved what I did. And yeah, there were times where you might have I remember having a district manager that

I think she wasn’t secure in her own leadership and I had to look around that.

you know, and see the opportunity and know that, yeah, this probably isn’t the person I want to work with forever, but I like this company and and I like the potential, especially since I started with them at 26 stores. You know, this going into the corporate world of retail. Prior to that, I worked for small mom and pop stores and and that was all fun. And along the way I learned how to merchandise and how to learn I learned visual merchandising. and so they gave me a lot of

leeway to to you know do that aspect of the job. It wasn’t so, it has to be like this and it has to be like that and you can only do this, you can only put that there. There was a lot more freedom for creativity. And and that was important to me. I just I just can’t execute. I’m just not an executor. You know, so yeah but

But definitely later on in my career, I can remember specific specific time sitting in meetings going, What am I doing here? So

Haley Boehning (08:52)
So how did

you for some of our listeners who are earlier in their career might be experiencing that that feeling of doubt? And what am I doing here? That imposter syndrome, do you have any any advice or how how did you overcome?

Mary JO (09:06)
Wow. you know, I think somebody gave me some really good advice a long, long time ago, and that was take it for what it’s worth. And if there’s something there, then then address it and then work on it.

as long as it’s aligned with your values and you don’t feel like you’re compromising, you know, who you are, if there’s something to learn from that, then learn from it. And you know, develop as a as a leader, as a man a manager than leader. And that’s w that’s pretty much how I worked at it, you know. you have to you know, there you have to understand that people are

Coming from I I have a belief that people come with positive intentions. Even though sometimes it may not feel that way, I had to believe that. And that they were just trying to make me a better leader or help me to become a better leader.

Haley Boehning (10:08)
Sounds like you you went into interactions with your with your managers with a really thoughtful perspective for a young person. I I

Mary JO (10:17)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (10:18)
wonder, can you talk to us a little bit about the switch from being an individual contributor to leading teams? Like what was that experience like for you, leading store teams?

Mary JO (10:31)
yeah, that was interesting. I became a multi-store manager when I was like twenty-seven.

So in retrospect, that was pretty young, you know, for to maybe it doesn’t seem that way, but all of a sudden you’re a store manager and you’re overseeing maybe 10 people, and then all of a sudden you’ve got 12 stores reporting to you. And in, you know, and we really didn’t have a leadership development program or anything like that at that time. So you kind of had to like figure it out on your own.

My naivete just said, help these people do what you did to become successful. And you know, it wasn’t always I wasn’t always right and made a lot of mistakes. And you know, you have to learn from those things. But I think going from an individual contributor to, you know, over you know, to a manager was a pretty easy

move for me, I didn’t overthink it, you know. I didn’t you know, which also could be a little naive, but I didn’t overthink it. I just immediately said to myself, my job is to hire great people, give them the tools and resources to support so they can get the job done, you know, and remove as many obstacles as possible.

and I still believe that to this day. I mean that’s one of my mantras is like your job is to get your results through your people, but you have to empower and enable them so that they can achieve what it is we need to achieve as a team. and that I always thought to myself to be also aligned with the company’s vision. You know, Mary Joe just can’t go off and run her own little franchise even though

you know, I was cocky enough to think I could do that. But I remember I

Haley Boehning (12:20)
Ha

Mary JO (12:21)
had an obus because I was over regional manager for California and he’s like, This isn’t Republican Mary Joe in California, you know. I’m like, why not? But that you know I l I learned like to really understand

Like if these this is the company’s, you know, their goals for the year and these are the strategies that we’re gonna implement, then we all have to get on that same bus and really work together. That doesn’t mean you go blindly, you know, but there’s a time to ask questions, there’s a time to p you know, to probe and to maybe advise, and then there’s a time just to get on the bus and make things happen.

and I think when I became a multi store leader and manager, that’s what I I really attempted to do.

Haley Boehning (13:10)
I wonder there are so many amazing leaders I can think of, you included, that came up through the stores side of the business.

Mary JO (13:19)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (13:20)
What did that early experience on the floor, on the selling floor, give you that you took into your leadership when you were a home office leader and and mostly sitting around conference room tables with with other leaders?

Mary JO (13:33)
God.

You know, I think sometimes what happens in the corporate world and retail is they forget about the customer and they forget about the people in the stores trying to deliver that brand experience or what what you know that’s aligned with the organization. And I think my role specifically was to champion

the stores because if they couldn’t if they didn’t have those tools and resources to get the job done, you know.

And a lot of that had to come through corporate. It wasn’t really fair, you know, to ask them, you know, for this, you know, to jump over these hurdles when they didn’t, you know, you’re asking them to hammer, you know, hammer something in the wall and they have no nail, you know. so I think that’s that was one of the challenges of coming up from the stores and I was always the one person that was really in the room with that kind of background.

You know, in that in that C suite area or the board meetings or things like that. I mean, these these guys were and not to take anything away, some of them were designers, merchants, marketing people, you know, the finance guys in the blue shirts, the

You know, that that that whole world and they didn’t necessarily come up from the stores. Very few of did. And I think that’s what I had to bring to the table quite a bit to be that that champion. But also, you know, it was it’s difficult. I had to partner with this group over here

but then I had to really support the field guys over here. And you know, sometimes it made me not the most popular person in the corporate world, but to me it was it was if I couldn’t give the stores all those leaders in out in the field what they need to be successful, it wasn’t I wasn’t doing my job. You know, so sometimes I didn’t win the popularity contest in the corporate.

Haley Boehning (15:47)
That’s true.

Mary JO (15:48)
All right, you know, you gotta have a backbone.

Yeah.

Haley Boehning (15:50)
Yeah.

So you joined Express when it had 26 doors.

Mary JO (15:56)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (15:57)
What’s the difference as a leader in leading a store of 26 people, leading a district of 26 stores, and then leading stores, 3,000 stores across the country? What stays

the same and what’s different?

Mary JO (16:14)
Well what stays the same is what I originally started with is being part of the

strategic, you know, ambitions of the organization, the corporation, especially when you live into being a public in a public company, that doesn’t ch that doesn’t change. what becomes more and more important is the team around you and the team that you’re working with. So when you’re an executive vice president, chances are you might have

I had two vice presidents reporting to me and then maybe ten or twelve regional managers reporting into them and then so on and so forth. so it all it all becomes about having, you know, the best players you can have on your team that

are aligned, you know, with where what it is we need to accomplish and how we’re gonna accomplish it. you know, so much of it is is where are we going and who are we taking with us? And, you know, really making sure that we’re all on the same game plan. I mean, some of my favorite favorite things we ever did was, you know, I think about maybe three times a year getting together with the field leadership teams and really sitting down and under sh you know, really looking at the numbers, taking apart the numb

Numbers, understanding where we are, what we need to do, where we need to pull back, where we need to push in. I I just really enjoyed that aspect of the job. I really loved it. and and but having really great people that you want to hang out with, you know. I mean, you don’t need to be their best friend or or anything like that, but people you just enjoyed being with and you respected each other and you could have fun. And but you’re very serious about getting the job done. And

those were really, you know, good times. Really great times, you know. I’m still really good friends with a lot of those people. So you know.

Haley Boehning (18:15)
So I

I imagine someone listening to your stories now thinks it was all rosy. Amazing.

Mary JO (18:21)
No.

Yeah.

Haley Boehning (18:23)
Were

Mary JO (18:23)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (18:24)
there a couple of moments where it almost didn’t happen?

Mary JO (18:29)
a woman that I actually admire in retail was also my toughest boss I ever had. and she she came in all of a sudden one day I had the CEO as a boss and then I had this woman head of retail for corporate. And

that was very, very difficult adjustment. I mean, basically I felt like I got dressed down, you know, I mean just pummeled into the floor, but then brought back up. And

That was a very, very I remember I was thinking about this. I remember when we were in Ohio, me walking out into the snow and laying down on my back in the snow like a snow angel going, Am I gonna be able to keep doing this? Because this person was really, really, really hard on me. But at the end of the day, she could have like

been a little more subtle, a little bit more thoughtful. But in retrospect, but that’s all I knew at the time. But but I learned a lot from that. And that goes back to like take it for what it’s worth, take what you can and you know, build yourself up. And that’s what I I had to do.

Haley Boehning (19:52)
Was there was there anything MJ, was there anything you had to unlearn? Something that maybe you believed as a as a young person that as you advanced in your career you realized was a myth?

Mary JO (20:03)
I had to go from being a cheerleader to a coach. That makes sense. I was really good at being a good cheerleader, but I’ll never forget one of my mentors that you and I both know.

Tell me. Mary Joe, the difference between a coach and a cheerleader. A coach makes a lot more money. And and they’re gonna be more effective. And and

I had to go from like just looking at all the good stuff and building people up to understanding my job is not just to be a cheerleader but to be a coach and that’s how you’re gonna develop people’s skills and make them better at their job, even when you gotta develop some even when you have to deliver some news that’s not necessarily comfortable. You know, but you have to do that. And I think that was one of the important lessons I learned or you know, earlier in my career through through mentors that I really respected. and I think

That would be the biggest thing. It’s like, you know, I just believe in the power of people so much, but you have to also understand that some of that power that they have has to come from really, you know, outstanding coaching and developing, and just you know, not just always bringing out the pom-poms, you know, and

Haley Boehning (21:16)
Yeah.

Mary JO (21:17)
not addressing sometimes it’s not fair to to people not to not address situations or behaviors that are going to get them in the way of being, you know, achieving their goals, whatever their job.

goals might be. So yeah, that’s probably the one of the most important lessons I learned along the way. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (21:35)
Was there

was there a time when leading people in a way that you felt was you know aligned with your principles or your values cost you something?

Mary JO (21:45)
Yeah, I I do.

Haley Boehning (21:50)
Have you signed an NDA? Yeah.

Mary JO (21:52)
No,

I I don’t think I ever have signed an NDA actually, but I I do remember somebody coming on board. and you probably know who that person is, but a couple people actually whose values and mine were completely I gave them a shot and I found out their values and mine were not even close to I mean, we were oil and water. And

luckily for me,

Another one of my mentors whom you know who I’m dearly love to this day is told me to always have your FU money. You know, have enough FU money that if somebody’s compromising your values, the things you believe in, you have to be able to walk away from those situations. And I tolerated it for a little bit, but not for long. And and luckily I had my FU.

money and was ready to move on and was the best best thing I ever did. So yeah, sometimes you sometimes you have to do those things. And I I suggest to people that just just know that. Just, you know, really understand what you stand for and what you’re willing to compromise on and what you’re not.

Because later in life you’ll regret those decisions, you know. You you will. And and you don’t want to be in that position. But I get sometimes it’s easier said than done, you know. But that would be my advice to people. Cause I definitely had a few situations like that.

Haley Boehning (23:22)
That’s great advice. Yes. I remember, I remember very distinctly getting that same advice about the FU money.

Mary JO (23:27)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (23:28)
I wonder if there was one particular mentor that sticks out to you as someone who really made a difference in your life and your career, and if there was a moment or something that they did that that that you could share with us.

Mary JO (23:45)
After working for limited brands for 22 years, then I did I did consulting work for about a year or so. And then I went to work with Arrow Pistol. I was there for 12 years. And what I really enjoyed about that organization is that they didn’t put people in silos, like, you’re the sports person, so that’s all you can do. You’re the design person, that’s all you can do, you’re the marketing person.

I going from limited brands, which was very like rigid and corporate and process oriented to era was like d moving to the wild, wild west. I’m you know, but in a good way. And I I really enjoyed working for the CEO and at the time COO. And they saw my potential, my ability to be more than than stores, which I was perfectly happy. I love the stores. But then I was able to take on marketing there and store.

design and you know they believed in me. I mean, but they also helped give me support and smart people to help me as as the leader of those those functions. But I loved that. You know, I loved having that opportunity to to you know have strong leaders in place in the stores organization so that I could go on to do, you know, explore other aspects of retail that I hadn’t had as much exposure to. Like one of my favorite things we ever

did with a with one of my favorite people in the world to this day was design a whole new new store. And and it actually got retail s n store design of the year from one of those organizations, but still still there in Roosevelt Field. But that was that was great. Letting you know having those people behind me and they’re still really good friends to this day.

really, you know, believed in you and saw more than maybe I even saw in myself. And I was pretty cocky to begin with. But, you

That was so fun for me to to to to move out of, you know, because I had been the stores person for so long. Then all of a sudden to be able to work with marketing, you know, develop social media ideas, to, you know, do a new store design. I mean, I usually stayed away from the design and

merchant world. although I’d always sit in their final assortment meetings and things like that and raise my hand and da-da-da. But

You know, it was more so that I could understand their vision for the season,

and I would sit in those meetings and think about what does this mean in terms of marketing, what does this mean in the terms the visual floor sets, what does this mean, you know, that I felt was my job. I think sometimes people want to get into other people’s business, you know?

Haley Boehning (26:34)
Mm.

Mary JO (26:35)
And and I had to like sit back and go, I I’m not the person that has spent all my life

becoming this designer, you know, that the or or this merchant, you know, and I have to really respect where where where they’re coming from and just think about how I can support that person. You know, sometimes I would give them a little advice is like, you know, I I think I don’t know if that’s gonna do as well in the Bible Belt kind of thing, you know.

Haley Boehning (27:05)
Right.

Mary JO (27:07)
They can’t sell that in Utah. But

I mean, so I saw my role more like that. But you know, I think I think it’s also to, you know, st to stay in your lane, but s when somebody gives you another lane to be in, they believe in you and so become really good at that. But also understand that people are very proud of their expertise and respect that.

Haley Boehning (27:33)
Do you feel like that experience at Aeropostol prepared you to be an entrepreneur and a shopkeeper yourself? Or was that happening simultaneously?

Mary JO (27:43)
yeah, it actually kinda happened simultaneously. It was when we both, my old business partner and I both decided that we were gonna open our own business. And it started in Ohio, then we moved it to Brooklyn. but I had the opportunity then to go to Aero, but it it’s so interesting now.

people come to me a lot and s you know, they get really I don’t ever see myself retiring. I’m not a retiring type of gal, you know. I’m just I mean, there’s different

you know, define what retirement is. If I’ve retired from the corporate world, then I’ve retired from the corporate world. But I have not retired from learning and from challenging and from developing my own business and constantly learning from that.

working with Arrow, I think because it was less corporate,

know, really exposed me to a lot of different

a lot of different possibilities and opportunities. And it was just a more entrepreneurial place. I would say that too. At at coming and who knows how it is now, but it was it was a smaller business. You know, it wasn’t sixteen other brands, you know, it was just them. So you so also I learned too, is like when you’re working for a single brand, you’re kind of flying without a net because we could have a bad season, but you could count on Victoria’s Secret or Bath Body Works to pick up the difference for the corporation. You don’t have anybody

to pick up that that deficit, you know, and you’re a public company, you know, that’s not good. You know, so

when you’re running your own business, you know, you don’t really have a safety net. You know, you don’t, you only have yourself to fall back on. But yeah, so so that definitely helped me. It was just a more entrepreneurial culture.

Haley Boehning (29:30)
so what was it that that helped you realize it was time for you to create your own brand, to go out on your own, to to become a shopkeeper without any safety net?

Mary JO (29:42)
Yeah, well you know what? I had wanted to even before when I was sixteen, I said when I started my retail career, I remember as a kid

going to people’s garages and their parents would have their groceries in the I’ll never forget doing this. I set up a whole grocery store in some some parents garage ’cause I figured I could r arrange things better for them. So I I always kind of wanted to have my own business. And again, a little naive. But yeah, I think

I think in I had a business partner and I think we were a good yin yang kind of thing, you know, although we were probably a little bit both more creative, then one of us could probably been a little bit more, you know, financially astute. A little bit more, you know, it’s funny, even though people think I came up from the store operations, I’m much more of a visual merchandise, I’m much more of a marketer person, I’m much more, you know, ideation is like one of my top cure.

characteristics,

you know, and people think, she came up in the store, so she’s gonna understand how the POS systems want to work. I really don’t, you know, to this day. But so and I don’t know. I just always went at my own store. And and you know, one of the but it’s I could go in being an entrepreneur is not easy. You know, it’s just it’s not easy. So

I was very fortunate, and this wasn’t a strategy, it just happened that we had opened the store, then I took another corporate job in New York. We opened the store in Ohio, we moved it to Brooklyn a few years later. And as my business partner at the time decided to pursue other interests in her life, you know, I had to step in more. And

And then I was still in a corporate corporate job. I was still, you know, making corporate compensations, levels, and and benefits and what have you. And I and I loved it. You know, I always promised myself that if I didn’t enjoy something, I would I would move on. And it was so it was I found good people to run the store to help me. you know, so I always kind of oversaw the store. I did most of the buying, but I still had my corporate world.

So I think when people are thinking about, like, I think it’s a it worked out really well for me to have that corporate experience, then also at the same time understand the entrepreneurial aspects. So I ended up kind of with this parallel path. So then when I was ready to leave the corporate world,

and all the cushiness of some of the aspects of it ’cause there is cushiness. Like one of the first things I do when I get there is like, gosh, I don’t have an admin. I don’t

Haley Boehning (32:34)
Yeah.

Mary JO (32:35)
wait, who’s gonna help me do that Excel

Haley Boehning (32:37)
Yeah.

Mary JO (32:37)
spreadsheet?

It so it’s so great for me that I love this in my time in life and my husband’s gotten in involved more in the business too, which is really nice. that I had this parallel path ’cause a lot of times when people you know, leave their jobs and they retire, what have you, then they’re like, What am I gonna do? What’s my purpose now?

You know, and maybe for some people it’s taking care of their grandkids. You know, maybe it’s they want to become a you know a certified professional gardener or what have you. For me, I loved retail. Like I s I started when I was 16 years old. I loved

going to become you know,

an RN or anything like that. I’m gonna I’m gonna, you know, continue to do this, but

Now I get to do it make all the mistakes. I get to make pretty much all the decisions. And so it’s it’s all on me. And I I I think one of the things I really enjoy most about being an entrepreneur is I can I can make customers happy no matter what.

You know, sometimes I choose not to make them happy because they they’re they’re undeserving. But

Haley Boehning (33:47)
Yeah.

Mary JO (33:49)
you know, because there are just some people out there undeserving. I’m like, yeah, I’m not doing that for you. But it’s so nice to be able to, you know, not be so rigid about everything, not have so many policies and procedures which are important in certain worlds. And I do have a certain set very loose guidelines, you know, for for the people that work for me now.

Haley Boehning (34:10)
but I wonder if if I could ask you questions that I ask all of my guests. the first one is, is there a book or a podcast that you’ve read or listened to recently that’s really inspired you?

Mary JO (34:25)
I listened to Scott Galloway. Do you know how that is?

The time. I read what he says, I listen to what he says. I think he’s one of the most effective communicators on the planet right now. And no matter maybe you’re you’re thinking I’m an artist or I’m a designer, I’m this or that, you need to understand what’s going on in the world. You know, I’m I’m shocked sometimes by people, you know, really. like, do you understand what’s going on in the world and how this is going to impact you, you know, and or impact our business or impact your future.

Like, pay attention. And a lot of you know, and I get it, you know, I have people that are working for me now that are graduates from Pratt, from graduates from the New York Academy of Art with their master’s degrees. And I think they’re so like this that they’re not paying attention to this. And I think if you can just read the morning brew every morning, or if you can listen to Scott Galloway or any you know, TED

that resonate with you, you know, just go for it. I will say

I don’t know if anything’s ever topped my my my books that I really helped me develop myself as a leader. And that was and I I husb that was Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I always tell people that. Always. I mean, and I know a lot of it is based on like Aristotle and people that have beyond for you know, gone for thousands of years, but the thinking is there, you know, the you know, the emotional bank account. I think

about that a lot, you know, you can’t you make deposits, you know, every time you have an opportunity to say something good to a person, say it if they’re working for you. So when you do have to like, hey, you know, that was a bad move over there, there’s enough deposit in there where then that check’s not gonna bounce, you know,

Haley Boehning (36:20)
Yeah.

Mary JO (36:20)
and you still have that good relationship. Also good to great is also and the other things first break all the rules by Marcus Buckingham.

You know, I learned so much from that. The twelve questions about one of the most important things about do you have a best friend at work? You know, things simple questions like that that people don’t always think about. But those those three books I can’t tell you. But but you always

Haley Boehning (36:44)
That’s great.

Mary JO (36:45)
have to be sharpening the saw, right, Haley? You always have to be

Haley Boehning (36:47)
Mm-hmm.

Mary JO (36:48)
like learning and exploring. And there’s so much going on today. You know, it the changes are just coming at you all the time. So you can’t sit around and be complacent, you know.

Even even though I’m kind of retired from the corporate world, I’m not retired from the world. And

Haley Boehning (37:05)
Yeah.

Mary JO (37:06)
you know, I have my own businesses that I I support. you know, what I care about now in

Haley Boehning (37:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mary JO (37:12)
my my world is not so much the compensation part. It’s about it’s about we support artists, you know, really

Haley Boehning (37:19)
Yeah.

Mary JO (37:19)
is what we do. And I support them if they work for me or if they’re artists selling their art in the store, because it’s hard for these guys. And my goals with this

Haley Boehning (37:27)
Yeah.

Mary JO (37:29)
business now.

It’s to support artists, support the community, and give people a great job while they’re on to something else. And a lot of times they’re on to something

Haley Boehning (37:38)
That’s great.

Mary JO (37:39)
else.

Haley Boehning (37:40)
is there a woman in retail right now? And I know you’re you’re focused on call your west, but is there a woman in retail right now that inspires you? and why?

Mary JO (37:50)
There’s you know, I I really thought about that question and I I wish I knew her. I think I know her as Fran with Abercrombie. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (38:00)
yes.

Mary JO (38:01)
And the reason why I say that is who would have thought that somebody could remake that brand? And and Abercrombie, Hollister, I forget what else is in there, but

I don’t really know her, but I’ve heard really good things about her. But for somebody to dig that brand out of the gutter, you know, and make it one of the for foremost, you know, brands now out there, you know, I I am really, really impressed by that track record, I have to say. You know.

Haley Boehning (38:33)
Remarkable

transformation, yeah.

Mary JO (38:34)
Yeah,

unbelievable. And that sh sh surely should be a case study. Be and don’t ever forget the importance of the decisions CEOs make. You know

It’s you just you better make sure that when you’re working for a corporation that you’re working for somebody that’s a visionary, that you know, has values, that can take this brand to a certain place, ’cause I have seen I have seen the opposite and I’ve seen the good stuff and I’ve seen the bad stuff, bad decisions, and so much of it comes back to who the leader is. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (39:08)
True. So final question,

Mary Joe. When you need a little extra oomph and you need to hype yourself up, what song do you play?

Mary JO (39:16)
I know you’d say I had to think about that. That new I I the music in me. Don’t even I got the music in me.

Haley Boehning (39:27)
Ha ha.

Mary JO (39:29)
I’ll dance around the store. But my new one lately, if you haven’t watched Voicemails from Lizzie, have you watched that one? it’s so good. There’s a song in there too. I won’t go into it, but it’s really good. I highly recommend that one. It’s not so much rom con, it’s about

A romance between sisters.

Haley Boehning (39:48)
that’s fabulous. Okay, I’m gonna look up. We’re gonna look up that song, both of the songs. We’re

gonna add them to the Lead Like Her playlist.

Mary JO (39:55)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (39:56)
And if we can get Fran on, then we’ll we’ll call you back and ask for your questions. Yeah. Amazing.

Mary JO (39:58)
Yeah, you should Yeah, I’m just like I’m so impressed by this woman. So

Haley Boehning (40:04)
Well, Mary Jo, thank you so much for spending time and sharing your story with us. it’s been a delight to catch up.

Mary JO (40:11)
You