Haley Boehning (01:06)
Kimberly, thank you so much for joining us on Lead Like Her today.

Kimberly Shenk (01:10)
Thanks so much for having me, Haley. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Haley Boehning (01:13)
That’s great. I was really delighted a couple of months ago to spend some time with some retail students at FIT who are about a year away from graduating and wondering what this wide world of retail has in store for them. And one question that kept coming up over and over again, that’s a really simple one. But I wonder if you could let our audience know, how did you get your first job in the retail industry?

Kimberly Shenk (01:40)
It’s a great question. I have a unique path into the retail industry. I actually in my early career was in the military. I was a captain in the Air Force. I was a data scientist. So a lot of the work that I was doing had application in business. I just didn’t know how that would pan out. ultimately I networked networked my way through and found an early as a marketing data scientist at Sports Authority as my first job out of the military. So

A lot of things happened in that experience that were very foundational to my further retail journey. But yeah, it was a very interesting way to have to find a job, finding yourself getting out of the military, transitioning into the civilian sector. all of that.

Haley Boehning (02:23)
Yeah, I wonder we’ve

we’ve had a few guests on lead like her that came out of the military as one of their first the first stage of their career. I’m curious, what about that experience of of being in the Air Force and having that that military training prepared you for retail? And then a second follow-up question is, what did it not prepare you for at all? What about retail just didn’t make any sense based on your training?

Kimberly Shenk (02:49)
Great question. so first, I think the the military’s core belief or ethos revolves around this concept of service before self. So you’re serving a mission that’s greater than yourself. And that was just very evident in my lifestyle, right? So like I had to uproot my life every two years to be stationed at another base or endure really long deployments, you know. my husband was also in the military. He was gone 320 days one year. And so being

able to be flexible, but on a different time schedule than I think traditional. but like I think some of the stuff that for me, at least in preparation for just my journey in leadership overall, is like the sacrifices weren’t about personal glory, I guess you could say. It’s just about contributing to something bigger. and then so in the military case, it’s obviously like protecting freedom and safety of others. But I think from a going forward standpoint, one of the greatest challenges, but also things that I found

be really inspiring is when you find and are able to find others that are motivated by that same sense of purpose around whatever problem that is. so, you know, in the in the case of retail and finding my career there, you know, finding people that had that shared purpose, but also that shared desire to have resilience and determination to push forward even when setbacks or things of that nature. So I think that was like one of the most foundational. The other though

Which is very interesting is this concept of discipline. and discipline as a habit leads to excellence. And so I in early in my military career, I attended the Air Force Academy, which is a military college, and just learned about discipline and excellence not being a singular act. It’s it’s that habit that you do over time. And so for example,

little small daily acts like you have to make your bed every day with hospital corners, you have to iron your uniform to perfection. You have to push through grueling physical challenges that you’re not excited about. But they create that discipline that when you can do discipline in the small things, you can tackle much larger complex tasks. So it’s like sets you up with that foundation. And I think from my perspective and what I’ve seen, especially in retail, it is very similar in the fact that

You start from something that might feel like a very small or menial job, working on a tiny little piece in merchandising or in my case, like marketing data science, where you’re like analyzing email lists, but doing that to perfection and showing up every single day builds a discipline of excellence and that habit then as you start to take on larger and bigger roles that have more responsibility, that are weighted with more you know, rigor or things that require more of you.

it just allows you to be able to tackle those things and and and accomplish goals that you never thought were possible. So that has kind of been a secret weapon I think that I learned from the military.

Haley Boehning (05:48)
That’s great. In addition to the discipline, you mentioned resilience. And how did your early experiences help you learn to be resilient? And what does that mean to you, being resilient?

Kimberly Shenk (05:54)
Yeah.

Yeah, resilience in that sense is continuing to show up even though you definitely don’t want to. It’s like nobody should make this sound more glorious than it is. Like there, you don’t want to get out of bed and do those things. You’re not excited about it sometimes. but when you learn to have that discipline to do the things even when you don’t want to, it teaches you a level of resilience where then you realize and you see the output of that and you see the fruits of that labor and you say, wow.

That does lead to something that’s great. And so I do think so even then when you have setbacks or things aren’t going your way or you don’t hit a metric or a thing that you’re supposed your goal or a target or something like that, you know you can lean back on the okay, I’ve been here before, this isn’t great, this isn’t it, but I can show up and I can continue to do those things and show excellence in the little things which lead to the bigger things. So I think that’s like where I’ve

I’ve really deeply learned that it’s all about continuing to show up and it really just helps you not give up.

Haley Boehning (07:05)
Good. How so as you’ve progressed through your career from being an individual contributor, starting out as a data scientist, to leading teams, how has leading yourself changed? Or has it?

Kimberly Shenk (07:19)
Yeah. it’s very interesting. I think I was formed, like I mentioned early on, by these ways of leading yourself. but I think in some of the other things, so I guess even now, you know, leading a company and hiring and firing and doing a lot of the things that I definitely was not able to do in the military. you know, there’s there’s really difficult bets that you have to make as a leader.

you’ll need to make investments and things. You’ll you’ll need to decide how to place people and resources against problems and make sure that those problems lead to the outcomes that you’re dis you’re signing up for. And the first thing that you learn, especially in the military, is you make investments, you do something. And if it’s not working, then you have to make tough decisions quickly and iterate. but in business and a lot of the leadership things I learned over time is that that might mean for example, we thought we were going to be building against

this one part of the organization and it was a very big bet. So we hired against it very quickly. And then quickly thereafter realized it actually wasn’t going to turn out. And that was emotionally a very challenging point for me. And culturally I knew it was going to be challenging. You know, you bring in these people, they become part of the organization. Emotionally it’s very challenging. But then also it’s right

For the business, it’s right for your stakeholders, it’s right for you know everything that you signed up as a leader. And so I had to make the decision, even though it was very unpopular and didn’t go over well on social media. And but it’s right for the the organization. And that’s the challenge of being a leader. And so you have to embrace some of that and say, Well, I’m put in this position for that reason. and so I have to carry that burden and that’s my responsibility.

Haley Boehning (09:01)
of the things I I read about you in my research was that you at one point said that you’re turned on by the impossible. what can you tell me more about that?

Kimberly Shenk (09:09)
Yeah.

Yes, I I there’s a couple of ways that that comes about. one is I sometimes just get very, very attracted to the big, big problems. And I think this goes back to why I even joined the military in the first place, like big missions where it’s not necessarily about me. I just want to be part of solving it. so

A lot of that manifests in like I of course like to do the small things that lead to the big things, but if you tell me something’s not possible, I’m gonna be even more excited to tackle it. I think there’s just something in that growth mindset of not wanting to have a limiter put on you, but also believing that anything is possible with hard work and discipline and showing up and continuing to be resilient. I mean, from personal things like I

wanted to run a sub three mar hour marathon and I had never run anything close to that in my life and people thought that was crazy and but doing those kinds of things show you even in a personal moment that that’s possible and it unlocks something for you mentally, psychologically that, that was crazy. I should never have been able to do that. But I did it. So I can do it in a professional case too. And I can do it in lots of different places in my life. So there’s just been examples of that to me where I’ve

proven to myself and others that it’s possible, not not necessarily because it’s something unique in me, just in the ways that you can show up to approach a problem. So I just find those things super attractive.

Haley Boehning (10:41)
That’s great. Sounds like you’ve you’ve carried a lot forward from your early years and still applying those insights. I wonder as you think back on your early years in as a leader, are there things that you believed strongly earlier in your career that as you progressed you realized they were not true, they were myths?

Kimberly Shenk (10:53)
Mm-hmm.

you know, it’s really interesting. When I was very, very early on in leading, and this was right between right after getting out of the military, one of the things that I did strongly believe in was you as a person showing up into an organization should be really focused on your own

personal development. And I still believe that by the way, but that should be like your main focus. So how is this role that I’m stepping into leading to my own personal development? And I, you know, I really did infuse that thought process into my team as I was hiring, like, don’t take a role unless it’s going to advance your career. You know, no business is going to think about you and your progression and is going to invest in you in the way that you are. And so you do have to be selfish in that.

I think some of that and a lot of that is still true, but there’s another layer on that as I’ve grown and learned over the years, that it’s it has to be an alignment of what’s good for you and what’s good for the business. and so it all it can’t all be an approach of, I’m only gonna do the things that advance my professional career. And that is a little bit getting back to the service before self mentality, which I I do fully believe in, but from a business perspective, it has to be an alignment of

What am I deeply passionate about solving? What am I uniquely skilled to do? And how does that move the business forward? And if all three of those things line up, that’s like gold and that’s exactly where you want to live. But if one of those things is off, then it’s actually not the right thing for you as a human, but also for your team and how you’re resourcing and building. So I think that’s like the thing that I’ve learned over time is there’s an extra layer in there.

Haley Boehning (12:49)
That’s great. As you think back, you know, looking at your career, you’ve had such an amazing career, so many varied experiences. And it just from the outside looking in, it looks like one step up the ladder at a time, just this trajectory that was inevitable. I wonder if there was a time when it almost didn’t happen, when things didn’t

Kimberly Shenk (13:14)
Hmm.

Haley Boehning (13:16)
Come together for you. And any of those pivotal moments that when you look back on your career, you think, wow, that was a turning point.

Kimberly Shenk (13:25)
Yes, yes. so interestingly, I between founding the company that I founded before this and one of the leadership executive roles that I had at the company Eventbrite, a ticketing platform, I took a stop at a a startup and in the data science platform space.

that was very unique to my background in data science and understanding infrastructure and how that comes about and you know, wanting to build a platform to do that. And the whole objective there was to say, okay, this is a step up and to your point, like, this is the natural next rung in the ladder. I was going from a leadership role at Eventbrite and this was on the executive team.

reporting directly to CEO, like, okay, this is the next role, and this is going to lead me to greater things. and very quickly learned that the role that I had stepped into was not right for me. And it was like, you know, when you feel like you’re pushing a boulder up a hill, it was like that every single day. And for some reason, the there was a cultural element to it, but there was also a skill set.

to that point element to it, things that you know, I talk about this a lot to my team. It doesn’t mean that you are not a talented individual and you don’t have something to contribute, but not all people are able to contribute in all contexts. And realizing that quickly is actually a very healthy thing. and I don’t think I realized it as quickly as I should have. And so that was just a moment in time of experiencing that over and over and over again. that I it’s just sat with me forever. And it’s also helped me just

help others recognize that when they’re experiencing that in my company or maybe even just in their roles. It doesn’t mean you’re not gonna be great in other contexts. it’s just recognizing that might not be the right place for you at that moment in time.

Haley Boehning (15:23)
so looking at your career, it and tell me if I’ve got this wrong, but you walked into the beauty business and the chemical industry as a data scientist. Was that like walking in as an outsider? Did you feel like an outsider in that space? And and if I got that right, like how did you

overcome that? How did you earn the trust of people as an outsider?

Kimberly Shenk (15:51)
Yeah, definitely felt like an outsider. I mean, the the parts that I mean, I had been in retail before, so it wasn’t necessarily completely shocking from a business use case perspective, but coming into beauty, I’d never been in the beauty industry before, which is very different. And then being so deep into the supply chain, I obviously had never been there before. and I had to learn a lot. I think the thing that was refreshing.

sometimes when you enter a space that has a unique problem to be solved and you have a fresh perspective on it that might be orthogonal or just like a little bit different than how it’s all the space has already always been operating or that people have always thought about that problem, you can bring a fresh perspective. And that’s I think the way that I took on that challenge, which was just

Learning, of course. Like you don’t want to disrespect people that have been doing it for years and you definitely want to learn from those people and understand why things ended up in the state that they are. And usually it’s very logical and it makes a lot of sense. But then bringing a huh, but have we thought about it this way? This is a really interesting way to approach it. And people tend to respect you if you show up with that respect to them and then also offer like a a curiosity of another way to think about a problem. And so

yeah, that that’s kind of how I I approached that, but it was very, very different for sure.

Haley Boehning (17:20)
Within our lead like our community, we have not just our emerging leaders and our students, but we have a lot of women like you in retail who’ve who’ve reached the C-suite, who’ve who’ve done the work and are really interested in mentorship and mentoring the generations that are that are coming behind them. I wonder in your experience,

Kimberly Shenk (17:35)
No.

Haley Boehning (17:43)
Were there, was there a mentor that you can think about that had a really significant impact on you? And could you talk a little bit about w what that impact was and how they achieved it?

Kimberly Shenk (17:53)
Yeah. there’s a couple of those instances. what I will say though, when I look back, one of the most influential was when I was at Eventbrite. during my time there, the co-found there were two co-founders, and Julia Hartz ended up taking over a co-founder as CEO. And I coming from the perspective I know this is also just in retail the same thing, but in the military.

no women are in leadership. That’s not something that you get the opportunity to look up to. and I ended up having the chance to not only look up to and watch Julia in this position, but also work relatively closely with her. And it was foundational and incredible to the point of, you know, when you see somebody like yourself in a position like that, it’s like everyone said, you see that you can do it.

and that is possible. And it just was a complete change of mindset. Like, I can be in an executive position. That is something that I could do. Look at her showing me and modeling what that could look like. look at how she commands a room, look at how she asks questions, look at how she gets curious, but also is very strong in her position. just really incredible things like that. And then also the way she would ask me questions and challenge me to think about the problem, empower me.

to go out and do what it I needed to do, gave me examples of how to speak in public, just just lots of things like that. So I would say, you know, when for me having women in leadership roles, those have been some of the most transformational experiences that have helped me then realize that I could take on this these positions that I’ve always aspired to be in.

Haley Boehning (19:40)
Right. How how do you think about your own role as a mentor?

Kimberly Shenk (19:49)
I want to, and I don’t try to say that I am the same, but I want to be that same kind of model. I think my unique take on it is also coming from a deep technology and data science, being an AI, having that background and understanding it deeply. that world is also very few women and showing that you can be

again, very smart, very technologically inclined and also be a leader in that space and just be creating being a role model for that is like what I aspire to do. Do I do that right all the time? Absolutely not. but I just want I want to be able to show that that that is possible.

Haley Boehning (20:33)
was there a time in your career when you doubted yourself? And how did you overcome?

Doubt.

Kimberly Shenk (20:42)
Hmm, many times.

What I will say, there are a couple of moments that I deeply emotionally can remember. The first was honestly transitioning out of the military into my first job in the civilian world into sports authority. I doubted myself because I had no idea what business was. I mean, we don’t have a lot of the business terms. I learned what a finance team was, I learned what a marketing team was, I learned what a revenue target was. I like I learned a bunch of things. It was like a a little mini MBA.

and I completely doubted whether I was even qualified to be in that role. there a lot of things like that. but I think what’s really interesting from the way I approached it is coming at things with like deep curiosity. And so just that innate like wanting to learn and just being super curious about wow, that’s interesting. I’ve never known about that. How can I go get educated about it and

I think that was some of the ways that I was able to get over that because then you start to learn, okay, now I’m really not that far off. And once I know that thing, I’m actually really capable to have this conversation and be in this room and not a big deal. so yeah, I think a lot of it is just questioning I’ve had that moment multiple times in my career, just questioning like, my goodness, I shouldn’t even be here. This role is not meant for me. there’s so many qualifications that I don’t meet. but then realizing like, I actually am

I’m just fine. I just needed to learn a few things and now I feel really competent and capable.

Haley Boehning (22:17)
is there anything that you had to unlearn?

Kimberly Shenk (22:20)
y yes, actually. There is something I had to unlearn.

The interesting way that the military operates is you it’s a hierarchy. And so if an upper rank tells you to do something, that’s just the way it is, and you say yes or yes, ma’am, and you move on, and there is no pushback, there’s not a lot of yes, I’ll hear you what hear you out, hear what you have to say. when I

was entering, especially early in my career and the way that I approached my job was do what you’re told at all costs and just listen and that’s how you’ll be successful. And what I er learned early on and saw from a lot of my peer set and the way that folks

and the some of the people that I looked up to and that were rising in the ranks is that they were actually challenging a lot of the status quo or bringing their own insight to the table and saying, Okay, I hear you, but here’s why I think this is better. And just seeing that behavior modeled was incredibly like I had to unlearn the don’t just do what you’re told, like think for yourself kind of thing. and work that out of the way I operated. and then of course, you know.

some of that it’s not like that perfectly goes away. And so then when you become a leader, you try to say like, okay, I’m directing all of you and saying this is what you should all do. And then recognizing that in the business context, that’s not always what people are going to agree with. And you have to have the open space to allow that dialogue and you ultimately actually get to better outcomes. So yeah, something that was just a really interesting like thing that was taught I taught was taught to me early early on that I had to break later on.

personally and the way that I showed up as a leader.

Haley Boehning (24:11)
you spoke earlier of leading people and leading teams and the responsibility that comes along with that. I wonder if there was a time when leading people in a way that was aligned with your values and your principles cost you something. And if you could speak to that cost and maybe the return on that.

Kimberly Shenk (24:28)
Mm.

Yeah. Yeah. so I am very comfortable making very, very hard, unpopular, uncomfortable decisions. And that’s I think goes back to a little bit of the service before self. Like, yes, personally it’s very hard and I don’t like it, but it’s better for the company, it’s better for your team, it’s the betterment of the of the larger picture. but in that

Same vein when you make those tough decisions, typically there’s always people on the bad side of the decision. and I was in a place where that really, really was hard to grapple with. and I had to make really uncomfortable decisions, it involved people that were close to me, that it you know ended up not being something that ended up in a way that I would have hoped. However

What I learned over time from that is that that’s what people actually yearn for and want and look for in a leader. And so even while I had a hard time with it, it was really hard to recover from and it was really uncomfortable, I’m okay doing it and and knowing that that’s like ultimately what a good leader is about. It it did just like form what I’ve learned over time and that I I still don’t enjoy, but I lean into as a strength of mine.

Haley Boehning (25:55)
Yeah, that is a an amazing strength in a leader. And I wonder, you know, now that you you lead your own company and you’re an entrepreneur and you have you have so much that you’re doing that’s changed constantly, how do you restore yourself? How do you recover from from the the difficulty of leading? Do you have some tips or practices you can share?

Kimberly Shenk (26:19)
I

I d I for me personally it has to come out and exercise. so whether that’s going on a run, getting outside, getting fresh air, whatever it is, I’ve always found that going and removing yourself from the situation, it just brings a ton of clarity. I personally problem solve on my runs, which is really funny, but if I go for a run, I’m in a sticky situation or a uncomfortable decision has to be made.

I can I think a lot of it is the adrenaline. Obviously there’s like very physical things that happen on a run, but I can get a lot of I can step away, I can see it from a different vantage point. I typically try to say like try and look at it from the top down, you know, like this you’re in the middle of it. Remove yourself from the situation, look at the bigger picture. and it’s just so helpful to do that. And so people don’t to the point where it’s like, all right, she’s gonna go for a run. But I come as a better person, a better human, more relaxed.

and so that’s my my personal way of leading.

Haley Boehning (27:21)
That’s great.

I’d love to talk a little bit about your journey to becoming an entrepreneur. So you you have worked for entrepreneurs, you had a unique view into co-founders, as you mentioned, and kind of add a bent bright. What was the moment, was there a moment when you were inspired to take that leap? And and what was that like?

Kimberly Shenk (27:48)
It’s interesting. I’ve reflected on this a couple of times because I’ve noticed throughout my entire life behaviors and desires to lead something and to build something. a you know, a company or an organization. I’ve I’ve tried to do it multiple times, but never seriously. until that moment that I had mentioned at Eventbrite, where I saw like, wow, this is actually something that can be done. This can be like

I could actually go and do this myself. I think though, kind of going back to the you have a personal desire and something that you want to do, but you need to feel like you have an extremely unique skill set to be able to solve that problem. Like you are uniquely suited to do it and it’s a really important problem to work on. I have a very hard time working on things that are not big, important problems that I fully believe in. If you don’t believe in it, you can’t get out of bed every morning. It’s impossible. And so,

That’s why it’s not just starting a company for a company’s sake and just saying, like, okay, I’m gonna go out and I’m gonna make money. Like that was definitely never on my my radar. so for me when I started to uncover a problem that I didn’t wasn’t really aware of for my entire career, but I stepped into it, I started to uncover it, I started to get really passionate about it, I started to see that I was uniquely set to solve it.

And then I saw that there was a real marketing opportunity around it. That was the moment for me that was like, okay, and I’ve seen examples of people do this, like, okay, great, this is my moment. And I felt really excited to step out and take that risk. So it it it did have to be like that perfect combination of all those variables. But that yeah, that that’s where with that’s when I took the leap.

Haley Boehning (29:30)
That’s great. I love the that little electric moment. So I we work with a lot of entrepreneurs in my business, and that that wonderful combination of a need in the world, a unique ability to fill it, the passion, the market opportunity, it like all combusts together into something just remarkable. as you needed to build your team, so you are fully 120% committed to this solving this problem. How do you

Kimberly Shenk (29:48)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Haley Boehning (29:59)
bring people along on that journey? What what are your you know how would you tell others who who might be building their own businesses what to do and not do in terms of bringing people along

Kimberly Shenk (30:12)
there’s so my goodness. Yeah. That this there’s a lot to cover that you could cover in this, but maybe two two things that I’ll focus on. The first is being very, very clear in your vision and what you’re trying to build and communicating that consistently a lot. you it it’s not as you wake up every day extremely excited and passionate about it, and this is like what you think you’ve been made to do.

And yes, other people are going to be excited to join that that journey with you, but they aren’t waking up with that same like, and then I understand exactly what we’re building. And this can be your employees, this can be investors, stakeholders, like you’re constantly having to remind them of what the vision is, what the journey is, what the objectives you’re trying to hit. because they don’t think about it day in and day out. Yes, your employees definitely do, but still there is an alignment of remember the thing that you’re working on today is leading to this larger vision. so constantly talking about it was one.

The other one that I think is really interesting is the the way you approach now tackling the the the thing that you’re building. I do have always come to the table with this like deep belief in a lack of ego and instead prioritizing something that we talk about a lot at my company, which is just intellectual honesty around like the best answer wins. I do not come at this with any

Like because I said, especially as like founder and CEO, like this is the best way to go and we’re gonna go forward with it. what that does when you have a lack of e strong confidence, high confidence for sure, lack of ego though, is people come to the table much more open and ready to collaborate because there’s no like preconceived bias or they don’t have to walk on eggshells because this person over here we know is

thinking something different. Like everyone is just very, very like at the table to solve the problem. The problem is the most important thing. And we don’t care who comes up with the answer. We’re just going to get to the right answer together. So I just coming with that humility has just like been really important. And I think that’s attracted a lot of people to work on that problem because they’re like, great, finally I can just problem solve. We don’t have to get there’s no drama behind this. Like great, let’s move all that. And then being inspired by that vision, obviously. So yeah, I think those are the two things.

Haley Boehning (32:28)
That’s great. Speaking of a vision, you know, you mentioned a few times that, you know, the industry as as you were coming up in it, there weren’t a lot of women in leadership. And lead like her is dedicated to you know, the people in our community are dedicated to closing that gap, right? Seeing that there are changes that need to be made. I wonder, you know, as you look out at the at the industry, at the retail industry specifically or or the the larger industry,

Kimberly Shenk (32:45)
Yeah.

Haley Boehning (32:58)
What do you think is something that we we need to change, that maybe we just whisper about, well, we really need to talk about directly and and try to put some effort behind changing?

Kimberly Shenk (33:08)
Yeah.

man. The you know, some of the things where I sit are we all we talk about this a lot, but I don’t think we’ve made a lot of progress, which is having women in read leadership roles. I think the highest leadership roles. So think about having women on the board, having women in the executive staff. there’s still not that much of that. And even where I sit,

Only 2% of venture capital funding goes to female founded companies. It’s still ridiculous. And you know, billions and billions of dollars are deployed every year. and so I think there’s a lot of talk around, yeah, we have to do that. So it feels like we might be doing it. But it’s the reason it’s tactically so important is for all the things that I just said, that if I see somebody in that role, I believe I can do it and I get a role model of how it should be done. so it it’s how do we

at how we do that, I’m not quite sure, but I just do know that the outcomes of it are extremely powerful. and it can be at the lower levels too. Like having a manager of my team makes me realize I can be a manager. And then you’re in the manager role and having a director, I see, I can be a director. And so it’s like how do we have it at all the levels? It doesn’t always have to be at the board and the CEO, although that’s very powerful. so that to me is I I still feel very, very strongly about that. And I think in retail too,

There are categories I think that lend themselves very well to having women in leadership because they are primarily female or women adopted products. And those products resonate with that that segment of the market. And so that’s not every category, obviously, and there’s a lot of diversity out there. But I think that those are are really ripe for for where that can be happening first.

Haley Boehning (34:52)
as you look back on your career, was there a rule that you broke or you bent in order to succeed?

Kimberly Shenk (35:02)
well there’s a couple I okay, so I’d say like at the maybe at like more of a macro level. I’ve aspired to break and have been for my entire later professional career, especially in the companies that I’ve been working and founding, this concept of trustworthy commerce. personally, I’ve always found a little bit of the

a lot of the advertising but marketing lens to be a little bit misleading and sometimes a guise for pushing crappy product. And so I’ve always wanted to break that rule and have a lot of personal emotion and passion for giving consumers the best and really helping the best product stand out. And there’s a lot of definitions for the best. I’m not trying to say I know what the best is, but the for that person that they get access to that better product.

And I’ve been working on this problem since 2017. You know, that’s why I co-founded the company before Novi and I’ve been working to break that. where I get excited about that is I actually believe now with AI and AI being like a place where consumers are starting to do discovery to find products, like this is the first time trustworthy commerce is actually possible. and so I get really excited. Like I wanna be part of that because I’ve been trying to bend that rule forever. will it

actually change. I have no idea because this is where advertising and marketing will still, you know, have a major role that’s never gonna go away. That’s always been really important in retail and commerce. but I do think this is an opportunity where the rules will be written and companies that are actually legitimately building better products will be able to win and stand out. And that’s just something I’m really passionate about.

Haley Boehning (36:42)
What what is it about AI that enables that?

Kimberly Shenk (36:47)
So the way the models are built are purely on language. And a large language model is just about language. And so the language that they’re going out and trying to find is to validate the claims about a product to know if it’s the right product to recommend. And so you now in the landscape of marketing could say something about a product. Great, there’s language out there.

But it needs to be corroborated in another place with similar language. And if it’s not, then it’s not a product that’s going to get recommended. And so these models are not emotional. They have zero historical context around a brand’s affinity or brand strength, or you know, they don’t aspire to popularity or things of that nature, which have c driven commerce to date. they’re just

purely binary black and white transactional kinds of things. And so I think that’s what’s interesting about it is like if you have a lot of examples and proof in language about your products across the internet that can be verified by a model, like your products will rise to the top. So I think that’s like what I get excited about. It kind of levels the playing field in a way.

Haley Boehning (37:56)
That’s great. I love it. Any anything that levels the playing field. if you could go back in time to your early days in in retail, maybe those early days at the sports authority or when you were starting out, what’s a piece of advice you’d like to give yourself, the younger version of you?

Kimberly Shenk (37:58)
Mm. Exactly. Exactly.

don’t listen when people tell you that it’s you can’t or that it’s not possible. the reason I say that is I often felt shoehorned into I started as a data scientist, this is my path, I’m always going to be a data scientist, and being kind of told like, okay, here’s your trajectory, here’s like the next job that you’re gonna have.

but always being excited about, here’s something over here that I want to dabble in or over here that I want to dabble in. And so yes, there are probably direct career paths or trajectories that you can take if you choose one, you know, merchandising and you want to be a chief merchant officer. but I think like having that variety and going out and learning new things and maybe knowing that if I wanna get into this next role, I have to take a step back and go down the ladder.

it’s okay. You become a more well-rounded person, you learn a lot of things. And so just not being limited by, you can’t have that job or you can’t do that thing because you don’t have all these things on your list of credentials. Be okay, great. Well, I’m gonna go get those things then. I’m gonna learn those things, I’m gonna figure out how to do it, and then I’m gonna get to that next step. so yeah, I think there were moments in time where I limited myself because I didn’t do that, and I would like to tell myself that.

Haley Boehning (39:30)
Good. So it now I’m

gonna ask you to use the time machine to go in the other direction. So you i i am I right, it you have two daughters. Yes. How old are they?

Kimberly Shenk (39:35)
Okay.

I do yes, they’re I have an eight year

old. Yeah, I have an eight year old and a three year old. Yes. Yes. So fun.

Haley Boehning (39:43)
my God, what a fun age for both of them. That’s so great. So

if you could use your brain as a time machine and kind of fast forward to their first jobs out of college, what is not true today that you you want to be true for them when they’re starting up?

Kimberly Shenk (39:50)
Mm-hmm.

finance.

Well, I th so I think is really interesting is this may or may not be the answer by the way, but like the I’ve been very open and try to be very communicative about what I do in my role with the girls and you know they use their own language in this like, mommy’s in charge or mommy’s the boss or whatever, but like

Being that role model for them, knowing that they can do that, I think like that’s what I hope is that that’s just more broadly. It’s not just they see their mommy doing it, but they see it all over the place and they know, like, I can step into that role. And it’s not a, I see it in a few places, so I’m inspired to think I can do it. It’s just kind of like a normal thing. Like, yeah, we’re equal. There’s women, there’s men, there’s all sorts of people are in in all sorts of roles and it’s not a thing. It’s not something that we have to think about. I think that’s like what I would hope for. But today, because it’s not

largely available and there’s not a lot of people in those roles. And honestly, I can’t even look up to a lot of people in those roles. I struggle with that. Like how many people have been successful female founders that have gone taken to a company to a certain stage? Like I can’t really count that many. And so I don’t have a lot of stuff to look up to. And I have my own, you know, like, can this be done? kind of things with that. And I just don’t want them to have that. And so yeah, I try to like show that with my own experience so that they think that that’s just normal and it’s not a

like a a unique thing in this world. So I just yeah, I hope that that’s the case when when they’re older.

Haley Boehning (41:35)
Great. Well, I’ll make a note to call you in approximately 20 years and see. Or maybe, maybe 10, maybe 18, so yeah, exactly.

Kimberly Shenk (41:39)
Yeah. my goodness, yeah.

Haley Boehning (41:43)
so a few questions I like to ask everyone that I interview. the first one, is there a book or a podcast that has inspired you recently that you’d like to share with our audience?

Kimberly Shenk (41:52)
Yeah.

I just read a book that’s actually new out called How to Not Know. It’s by Simone Stolzoff. so the subtitle is the the value of uncertainty in a world that demands answers. so it’s just it’s really interesting. It’s data and examples on how to build that resilience and find clarity when you you know it the world is incredibly unpredictable, but clear examples of how

the skill of embracing ambiguity like can actually be super valuable. So yes, that book also sums up the life of a founder. So yeah. Living in uncertainty. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

Haley Boehning (42:30)
That’s true. Certain certainty is a dream. It doesn’t exist. That’s

great. And is there, you know, for our retail audience, is there a a woman in retail who inspires you? And why?

Kimberly Shenk (42:41)
Yeah.

hands down. This is the easiest answer. Heidi Cooley. she had an incredible run as CMO of Crocs. She’s now CMO at LoveSack. And before Crocs, she raised rose in the ranks from a merchant to the CMO at Sports Authority. So I was fortunate enough to work with her and learn from her. Incredible leader, incredibly smart, like in a a powerhouse in the executive room, showed me what it’s like to be a strong female leader. So I

She’s self-made. She worked hard. She showed her value. She earned all the seats that she has gotten. And so yeah, I’m as you can tell, I’m a such a fan girl girl where I watch what she did at Crops over the eight years there. So yeah. But hands down, follow her. Yes. Please do.

Haley Boehning (43:23)
That’s great. Well, I will reach out to her. I will reach out to her and see if she’ll come on the show. And then you don’t have to answer this

now, but I will reach out to you later so you can think about it. I will ask you, if I can get her scheduled, I will ask you for a question. Something that we should ask her or something she should talk about. So just put that in the back of your mind and I’ll reach out to you again. so then and then our our final fun question. so when you need to hype yourself up, what is the song that you put on?

Kimberly Shenk (43:38)
yay. Love that. Yes. Okay. Great. Love that.

Haley Boehning (43:53)
And listen to.

Kimberly Shenk (43:54)
Okay, there’s two. I have to tell you two because I couldn’t decide. But also my girls love these two as well. The first one more than the second, but Roar by Katie Perry. like I’m I’m a champion. you’ll hear me roar that we love that one. And then The Man by Taylor Swift. I mean, it just talks about, you know, societal norms and achieving jobs and roles and things of that nature. But hearing that from her is just so powerful and inspiring. So yeah, those are the two.

Haley Boehning (44:20)
that’s great.

Well, they’ll definitely go on the Lead Like Her podcast playlist. So thank you for that. Kimberly, it has been just a delight to hear your story and get to know you. Thank you so much for joining us and for sharing this time and your insights and your wisdom with our audience.

Kimberly Shenk (44:25)
Perfect. So wonderful.

Yeah.

Of course. Thanks so much for having me. It’s been so fun.